Alto - High Speed Rail (Toronto-Quebec City)

[ssiguy2]

I think Carney is more likely to accelerate the process than slow it down. This is one of those very big infrastructure projects that Canada needs and he will want shovels in the ground sooner rather than later as the number of workers employed in it's construction as well as the huge number in supplying it's construction will be a big shot in the arm just when we need it.

I do think, however, that Carney will also announce a similar HSR project between Cal/RD/Edm at basically same time. The demand is there and it would be a political win Carney desperately needs in Alberta.

As for Carney thinking about CHSR, I think he is seriously looking at it but only so he can do the opposite. CHSR has been a catastrophe on so many levels it's hard to list them all and has become the poster child of how NOT to build HSR.

 

[micheal_can]

I think Carney is more likely to accelerate the process than slow it down. This is one of those very big infrastructure projects that Canada needs and he will want shovels in the ground sooner rather than later as the number of workers employed in it's construction as well as the huge number in supplying it's construction will be a big shot in the arm just when we need it.

I do think, however, that Carney will also announce a similar HSR project between Cal/RD/Edm at basically same time. The demand is there and it would be a political win Carney desperately needs in Alberta.

I also think the C-E line would make sense. If we ignore the political aspects of it, It meets most of the reasons for building HSR. I do feel that it willeb announced after the report on ALTO's construction. That should give them a better indication of rough costs.

As for Carney thinking about CHSR, I think he is seriously looking at it but only so he can do the opposite. CHSR has been a catastrophe on so many levels it's hard to list them all and has become the poster child of how NOT to build HSR.

What would be nice is to see a contrast between CHSR's follies and what other HSR projects did to avoid them.there is a difference between building something in Asia, Europe and North America. Some problems can be "the nature of the beast".

 

[nfitz]

It's the poster child for how not to build anything.

 

[micheal_can]

It's the poster child for how not to build anything.

But, it is being built?

 

[generalcanada]

This discussion is weird to me, we put shovels in the ground and then complain that it goes wildly over budget and off schedule
We spend time before putting shovels in the ground and then complain that were not building anything

Which one is it? Id prefer number 2

 

[micheal_can]

This discussion is weird to me, we put shovels in the ground and then complain that it goes wildly over budget and off schedule
We spend time before putting shovels in the ground and then complain that were not building anything

Which one is it? Id prefer number 2

The problem is we cannot seem to figure out costs to save our lives. We also cannot schedule to save our lives. It is rare when a major project comes in under budgeted and early.

 

[Bojaxs]

Definitely agree with everyone that when we plan out ALTO, we should learn from the mistakes made in California.

 

[micheal_can]

Is there some sort of list of all the problems CHSR encountered? If not,can they be listed here so we can understand what we want to avoid?

 

[SFO-YYZ]

Is there some sort of list of all the problems CHSR encountered? If not,can they be listed here so we can understand what we want to avoid?

Do we really need to get into CHSR on this thread? Like, there are soooo many HSR projects around the world that warrant our discussion rather than a myopic focus on a grossly bloated, over-designed, over-budget, over-consulted project from a state / country that absolutely SUCKS at building AND operating any semblance of a 21st century rail and transit infrastructure. Look to Asia, look to Europe. Heck, even look to Africa or South America for their recent heavy rail and HSR projects. In terms of rail and transit developments, USA is a dumpster fire and has been for quite some time.

But if you so want to reiterate CHSR and its 999,999,999 problems, simply Google, Youtube, or ChatGPT it and you’ll get your list in 5 seconds.

 

[junctionist]

There's a significant chance that our projects will have cost and delay issues as well. Why? Because we don't have any experience building that kind of infrastructure. The same thing happened with grade-separated LRTs in Ontario.

Fortunately, if you keep building, you eventually get the irreplaceable asset of a group of people who know what they're doing and can do things very efficiently. Even if you bring people in from European and Asian countries with significant HSR development, they're going to have some learning to do in terms of navigating our legal regulations, engineering standards, and construction practices.

 

[smallspy]

Do we really need to get into CHSR on this thread? Like, there are soooo many HSR projects around the world that warrant our discussion rather than a myopic focus on a grossly bloated, over-designed, over-budget, over-consulted project from a state / country that absolutely SUCKS at building AND operating any semblance of a 21st century rail and transit infrastructure. Look to Asia, look to Europe. Heck, even look to Africa or South America for their recent heavy rail and HSR projects. In terms of rail and transit developments, USA is a dumpster fire and has been for quite some time.

But the problem is that it is the only project that is being built to a similar set of regulatory requirements, in a similar geo-political environment.

There are lessons to be learned from other projects elsewhere around the world, sure, but California's the only one that comes close to being us.

Dan

 

[nfitz]

There are lessons to be learned from other projects elsewhere around the world, sure, but California's the only one that comes close to being us.

California makes the case very strongly for a PPP. Though it's that they've never received funding for most of the project which is the root cause of much of this - and I expect if they'd gone that route, then they'd not have started at all.

 

[micheal_can]

Do we really need to get into CHSR on this thread? Like, there are soooo many HSR projects around the world that warrant our discussion rather than a myopic focus on a grossly bloated, over-designed, over-budget, over-consulted project from a state / country that absolutely SUCKS at building AND operating any semblance of a 21st century rail and transit infrastructure. Look to Asia, look to Europe. Heck, even look to Africa or South America for their recent heavy rail and HSR projects. In terms of rail and transit developments, USA is a dumpster fire and has been for quite some time.

But if you so want to reiterate CHSR and its 999,999,999 problems, simply Google, Youtube, or ChatGPT it and you’ll get your list in 5 seconds.

We do not need to. However,comparing various HSR construction projects to see what we are in for and ways of mitigating the worst of the problems should be what is done, somewhere. My hope is it is being done in the ALTO offices.

There's a significant chance that our projects will have cost and delay issues as well. Why? Because we don't have any experience building that kind of infrastructure. The same thing happened with grade-separated LRTs in Ontario.

Fortunately, if you keep building, you eventually get the irreplaceable asset of a group of people who know what they're doing and can do things very efficiently. Even if you bring people in from European and Asian countries with significant HSR development, they're going to have some learning to do in terms of navigating our legal regulations, engineering standards, and construction practices.

My fantasyland is we start and never stop. So, after ALTO is built, where next and those lessons learned are used to build upon the knowledge we will have of building ALTO.. Practically speaking, with the 15 year timeline for ALTO, we will not run out of projects for close to 60+ years, if we only do the projects that would actually make a difference.

 

[crs1026]

There’s no reason why Canada must copy every mistake that CHSR has made (sadly, we will probably invent new ones)
The smartest way to proceed would be to select one segment (Montreal-Ottawa being an obvious starting point) and build it, while doing deaign work in parallel for other legs.

- Paul

 

[jje1000]

There’s no reason why Canada must copy every mistake that CHSR has made (sadly, we will probably invent new ones)
The smartest way to proceed would be to select one segment (Montreal-Ottawa being an obvious starting point) and build it, while doing deaign work in parallel for other legs.

- Paul

Montreal-Ottawa as the first phase is somewhat politically toxic (won't help with popular perceptions of Liberal favoritism), but can be resolved by having the Ottawa-Toronto line be the next phase.