Alto - High Speed Rail (Toronto-Quebec City)

[TorontoPotential]

As someone who makes a living with analyzing train movements and calculating line/track capacities, I’m puzzled as to where the problem lies with 150 km/h fast GO Express trains operating non-stop to Scarborough Junction (and beyond) sharing tracks with intercity trains which would do the same at the same speeds. It would be much more ridiculous to reserve tracks on such a busy corridor for a rail service which won’t operate with more than 2 trains per hour and direction for the foreseeable future…

Hmm…. Not sure running a bullet train thru leslieville is very wise or safe. There is zero room for safety berms and it’s a busy corridor with homes that basically back right onto the tracks…. I can’t see t

Then they'll wait until it's not (provided the project actually manages to start). Running an HSR service away from Union makes about as much sense as opening the Crosstown without Eglinton station.

That’s fair but also why this project is unlikely to ever happen because incapable Metrolinx stupidly crammed the Ontario Line choo choo train to nowhere into the CN/VIA/GO corridor that could’ve enabled this. It’s never coming to union, unless it goes underground like the Ontario Line should have.

 

[T3G]

Hmm…. Not sure running a bullet train thru leslieville is very wise or safe. There is zero room for safety berms and it’s a busy corridor with homes that basically back right onto the tracks…. I can’t see t

If the project can't be done without the involvement of one of the biggest train stations in the country, do not expect it to be done at all (a realistic expectation, considering how our national strength is waffling on and on about infrastructure projects that are never realized).

HSR that bypasses Union is not happening. Ever. There is no point in even having a discussion about it, because I can guarantee you there isn't a single person in the financial or governmental world of Canada who will okay such a project.

Also, what is this? I never said anything remotely resembling this.

 

[Urban Sky]

Hmm…. Not sure running a bullet train thru leslieville is very wise or safe. There is zero room for safety berms and it’s a busy corridor with homes that basically back right onto the tracks…. I can’t see t

Which part of “sharing tracks with intercity trains which would do the same at the same speeds” did you not understand? Below are the speed limits faced by a TGV train leaving Paris Gare de l’Est towards Strasbourg:

Crosspost from: Post #244

Scarborough Junction is 13.8 km from Union; at 13.8 km from Paris-Est, the TGV hasn’t even exceeded 130 km/h yet, let alone the maximum speed of the GO trains…

 

[runTurtles]

Probably no new information for people in this thread, but nice 3D renderings of the route in the video.

 

[rbt]

I see the appeal to Union... but I'd also think a Pearson connection makes sense. It would spread the traffic away from the already jammed corridors in/out of Union, it would offer better regional connectivity, it would further cement the transit hub around Pearson, and I could even see it being a boon to int(-er/-ra)national travelers who could fly into Pearson and then hop the HSR to points onward

A very strong Dorval airport connection makes a lot of sense and provides all of the benefits you mention, to the point where the may tunnel to the airport terminal. Destinations provided by the airport are fairly fluid based on what sells; and Pearson offers no infrastructure advantages in terms of technical limitations to destinations.

I'm less certain about Pearson being a must-have HSR station. It's quite a bit out of the way for most of the non-GTA population along the proposed HSR route.

 

[nfitz]

As someone who makes a living with analyzing train movements and calculating line/track capacities, I’m puzzled as to where the problem lies with 150 km/h fast GO Express trains operating non-stop to Scarborough Junction (and beyond) sharing tracks with intercity trains which would do the same at the same speeds.

What's your source that GO Express trains would be non-stop? Everything I've seen is that all Express trains would stop at East Harbour; utilizing all 4 tracks.

Just like with the Ottawa Bypass, whichever investor comits the necessary billions to fund such a commercial non-starter would never be given the chance to fund a project again…

At least that's one that VIA or whatever it was called then, put on a map. Who's to say what might make sense in 2050, one it is operational. Or how many freight railways might survive in Canada by then.

Which part of “sharing tracks with intercity trains which would do the same at the same speeds” did you not understand?

Are you trying to say that Alto trains will be stopping at East Harbour? That may be a good idea, given the excellent change to what essentially will be 3 different subway lines.

 

[Urban Sky]

What's your source that GO Express trains would be non-stop? Everything I've seen is that all Express trains would stop at East Harbour; utilizing all 4 tracks.

The travel time loss of a GO train stopping at East Harbour is 2 minutes max (assuming EMUs), so who cares if a HSR train following it gets delayed by a few seconds?

At least that's one that VIA or whatever it was called then, put on a map. Who's to say what might make sense in 2050, one it is operational. Or how many freight railways might survive in Canada by then.

Nothing of the following will change in the next 50 years:

CPKC’s Winchester Subdivision measures 90 miles from De Beaujeu (MP 35) to Smiths Falls (MP 125). This means that such an Ottawa Bypass would add 145 km (or 25%) to the 580 km of rail infrastructure which needs to be built or upgraded between Toronto and Montreal. This is a considerable cost escalation.

At the same time every Toronto-Montreal train which bypasses Ottawa loses more TO and OM passengers than it gains TM passengers from cutting travel times by maybe 15 minutes, as I’ve shown here:
View attachment 597293

VIA Rail

My understanding was that HFR wanted to achieve 125mph (200km/h) speeds, at least on some portions of the line, no? My understanding is that is the highest speed you can go without fully grade separating everything, which makes it cost prohibitive. I'd be supportive of building an "Ottawa...

urbantoronto.ca

The Ottawa Bypass thus entails high incremental capital costs (when building it) and negative incremental revenues (when using it). It’s an absolute no-brainer to discard this idea as unviable.

***

Are you trying to say that Alto trains will be stopping at East Harbour? That may be a good idea, given the excellent change to what essentially will be 3 different subway lines.

I can’t imagine they will, because they would then eat up too much capacity (also, the Ontario Line is mostly a Relief line and much less interesting as a connector line than, say, TTC lines 2 and 5). They can only stop once they no longer share tracks with Lakeshore East trains…

 

[Bojaxs]

With the possibility of HS trains sharing the same line with GO trains (whichever line that may be), GO trains would be running on tracks designed for HSR. Would the GO trains be able to travel faster?

I'm just wondering if we're potentially going to see a similar setup as the MARC trains running on the North-East corridor and getting to hit some rather high speeds due to the upgraded tracks they run on designed for the Acela.

 

[Urban Sky]

With the possibility of HS trains sharing the same line with GO trains (whichever line that may be), GO trains would be running on tracks designed for HSR. Would the GO trains be able to travel faster?

I'm just wondering if we're potentially going to see a similar setup as the MARC trains running on the North-East corridor and getting to hit some rather high speeds due to the upgraded tracks they run on designed for the Acela.

The travel time savings on the shared segments achievable by exceeding the maximum speeds of the GO EMUs would be negligible and not worth the capital cost. There is a reason why the TGV takes 18 km before it can accelerate beyond 160 km/h for the first time while heading towards the LGV Est. Also, the more similar the average speed of different train service types sharing the same tracks are, the higher the capacity.

 

[guavadelic]

Friendly reminder that optimal locations for intercity rail stations are driven by the availability of transportation links and hubs (especially those linking into the region and other metroplitan areas) rather than offices, shopping centers or condos within walking distance. As desirable as, say, Yonge Dundas Square might be for locating these latter 3 land uses, it lacks the kind of extra-urban transportation links on which intercity rail critically depends.

Therefore, you can all safely assume that nobody will comit billions for building ALTO without ensuring that trains can and will stop at Toronto’s Union Station and Montreal’s Gare Centrale…

For Montreal, Alstom's 2022 VIA HFR presentation proposed Lucien L'allier as the city's main station. Considering ALTO's estimated trip times are virtually identical to Alstom's proposed times and factoring in how tied-in they are to the winning consortium...there's likely a non-zero chance they choose that station for Montreal.
Now whether that is the right or wrong call, that's another story.

https://www.transportaction.ca/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/HFR-Presentation-Alstom-Nov-2022.pdf

 

[Urban Sky]

For Montreal, Alstom's 2022 VIA HFR presentation proposed Lucien L'allier as the city's main station. Considering ALTO's estimated trip times are virtually identical to Alstom's proposed times and factoring in how tied-in they are to the winning consortium...there's likely a non-zero chance they choose that station for Montreal.
Now whether that is the right or wrong call, that's another story.


View attachment 638846
https://www.transportaction.ca/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/HFR-Presentation-Alstom-Nov-2022.pdf

I don’t see the space to create the required 4 dedicated HSR platforms at Lucien L’Allier, but the point remains that the future ALTO station will be within walking distance of the green and orange metro lines, as well as the REM and all exo lines (except Mascouche, I’d assume).

 

[nfitz]

I don’t see the space to create the required 4 dedicated HSR platforms at Lucien L’Allier, but the point remains that the future ALTO station will be within walking distance of the green and orange metro lines, as well as the REM and all exo lines (except Mascouche, I’d assume).

If they want to build a new tunnel, then the Alto platforms wouldn't be on the same level as the existing EXO platforms.

The travel time loss of a GO train stopping at East Harbour is 2 minutes max (assuming EMUs), so who cares if a HSR train following it gets delayed by a few seconds?

I really don't see how they are going to have HSR with all these 2 minutes here and 3 minutes there you keep adding. And even if the Ontario Line and East Harbour station don't steralize the route for HSR, Scarborough Junction is a big problem, and the capacity along the Stouffville line isn't as wide as along the Kingston Sub through Leslieville. Though if they throw enough money at it, they add a couple of spans over the Don, and tunnel up Carlaw

Nothing of the following will change in the next 50 years:

Only 50 years? That's already the timeframe we are dealing with. It's almost 50 years since VIA started looking at HSR, and near another 20 years before we expect it top open - if things go well.

I can’t imagine they will, because they would then eat up too much capacity (also, the Ontario Line is mostly a Relief line and much less interesting as a connector line than, say, TTC lines 2 and 5)

Line 5? The forecast demand for Line 3 is about 4 times that of Line 5. And approaching that of Line 2.

The original Pape to Queen relief subway line concept is long since gone. They are a lot closer now to the original concept for the Queen subway line from the 1960s (and in some ways similar to the concept that was approved in the 1940s city referendum). If they build the eastbound extension to Pearson and Kipling - then it will be a more extensive line than any other subway line.

 

[TorontoPotential]

Which part of “sharing tracks with intercity trains which would do the same at the same speeds” did you not understand? Below are the speed limits faced by a TGV train leaving Paris Gare de l’Est towards Strasbourg:
View attachment 638800
Crosspost from: Post #244

Scarborough Junction is 13.8 km from Union; at 13.8 km from Paris-Est, the TGV hasn’t even exceeded 130 km/h yet, let alone the maximum speed of the GO trains…

It’s cute that you think Canada and more specifically Doug Fords Ontario has the capability to sequence GO with HSR. LOL. While this IS a possibility in places like Europe it won’t ever happen here in our lifetime, but I digress bc your point is that it IS possible even tho it’ll never happen here. Vive le Canada

 

[reinventingthewheel]

create the required 4 dedicated HSR platforms

Why is this required?

 

[T3G]

I really don't see how they are going to have HSR with all these 2 minutes here and 3 minutes there you keep adding.

The crucial part of express trains is their ability to traverse long distances quickly, not the time it takes for them to exit out of the urban area that they serve.

This feels like discrediting air travel, because taxiing and waiting for takeoff clearance can sometimes take 5-10 minutes.