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Toronto Eglinton Line 5 | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | Arcadis

Now I’m wondering what was the timeline of when Phil announced the signal issue and when operator training was taking place. They said they found a bug in the software but I wonder if it got more severe to the point where training had to stop.
 
smallspy said:
There is no rough patch of track.


TTC's operators. The first set of classes completed their training on the Eglinton Line, the second set had their classes interrupted about two-thirds of the way through. The third set of operators - the ones that were going to be the first ones trained on both Eglinton and Finch West - have had their training dates postponed indefinitely.


Only in general terms.

The gist of it is two fold: that there was a major signal system failure on the Crosstown early November, and they have been trying to resolve it since then. This is what halted the second set of classes for training the operators. On Finch West, the TTC has still not been given full access to the line, as Metrolinx and Mosaic are still hashing things out.


If you'd been following, you'd know that no, it doesn't take a year to train an operator to drive a streetcar.

As well, these aren't streetcars, and it still doesn't take a year. The TTC requires 30 days of training, the same as a subway operator as - despite what a lot on here want to believe - the line is as complicated to operate as a subway.

Dan
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I was riding around on the REM today and thinking this is pretty neat, and will be pretty awesome when it gets up and going in Toronto. And then your posting. So I am almost scared to ask this question, as it may have been lashed out in UT about 357 pages before, but is the signalling system a “made in MetroLinx/TTC/Gov’t of Ontario” problem? With all of the similar transit lines running around the transit world, would they not be starting with some proven, licensed signalling system and then adapting to whatever peculiarities that might exist here? Or did we design from the ground up? And would these issues spill over to the Finch Line? My apologies in advance if you have covered this before.
 
just east of the creek said:
With all of the similar transit lines running around the transit world, would they not be starting with some proven, licensed signalling system and then adapting to whatever peculiarities that might exist here? Or did we design from the ground up? And would these issues spill over to the Finch Line? My apologies in advance if you have covered this before.
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I know Finch is using Thales, not sure which one Crosstown uses. But all these systems are done exactly as you mentioned. It's just the "adapting to peculiarities" is where it all goes wrong. I suspect this is the crosstown issue, but Metrolinx is an opaque box. Edmonton and London had issues integrating their "out of the box" systems for the Metro and Elizabeth lines respectively, so it's not unusual
 
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just east of the creek said:
I was riding around on the REM today and thinking this is pretty neat, and will be pretty awesome when it gets up and going in Toronto. And then your posting. So I am almost scared to ask this question, as it may have been lashed out in UT about 357 pages before, but is the signalling system a “made in MetroLinx/TTC/Gov’t of Ontario” problem? With all of the similar transit lines running around the transit world, would they not be starting with some proven, licensed signalling system and then adapting to whatever peculiarities that might exist here? Or did we design from the ground up? And would these issues spill over to the Finch Line? My apologies in advance if you have covered this before.
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The big issue, at least a while back, is that Eglinton effectively uses 2 separate signalling systems - one for the underground section (with ATO) and one for the surface section. Unlike most other systems in the world where such transitions take place in stations where trains can reboot their systems, on Eglinton this needs to be done on the fly, whilst the train is travelling between Laird and Sunnybrooke park.

Whether or not this is what's currently holding Eglinton back I don't know, but getting this to properly work was a major issue circa last year.
 
just east of the creek said:
I was riding around on the REM today and thinking this is pretty neat, and will be pretty awesome when it gets up and going in Toronto. And then your posting. So I am almost scared to ask this question, as it may have been lashed out in UT about 357 pages before, but is the signalling system a “made in MetroLinx/TTC/Gov’t of Ontario” problem? With all of the similar transit lines running around the transit world, would they not be starting with some proven, licensed signalling system and then adapting to whatever peculiarities that might exist here? Or did we design from the ground up? And would these issues spill over to the Finch Line? My apologies in advance if you have covered this before.
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As others have said, integration of multiple different types of signaling Above ground and below ground. Plus, the contract itself is just bad, you literally can't change anything. Everything is basically being settled behind the scenes in court.

Software bug? Lawsuit. signaling system failed? Lawsuit. concrete at station stop isn't right? lawsuit.
 
generalcanada said:
As others have said, integration of multiple different types of signaling Above ground and below ground. Plus, the contract itself is just bad, you literally can't change anything. Everything is basically being settled behind the scenes in court.

Software bug? Lawsuit. signaling system failed? Lawsuit. concrete at station stop isn't right? lawsuit.
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With all the lawsuits for just the eglinton crosstown, they probably built them a dedicated courthouse 😂
 
nfitz said:
Didn't the 2024 TTC budget show it open in late summer 2024 (September 2024). And the 2023 TTC budget show it open in September 2023?
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Given the ongoing testing challenges and a lack of confidence in system reliability, legal disputes, and contractual complexities, my best guess is it opens in spring/summer 2026.

That'll be almost 20 years since then-Mayor David Miller announced the project.
 
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just east of the creek said:
I was riding around on the REM today and thinking this is pretty neat, and will be pretty awesome when it gets up and going in Toronto. And then your posting. So I am almost scared to ask this question, as it may have been lashed out in UT about 357 pages before, but is the signalling system a “made in MetroLinx/TTC/Gov’t of Ontario” problem? With all of the similar transit lines running around the transit world, would they not be starting with some proven, licensed signalling system and then adapting to whatever peculiarities that might exist here? Or did we design from the ground up? And would these issues spill over to the Finch Line? My apologies in advance if you have covered this before.
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Kyle Campbell said:
I know Finch is using Thales, not sure which one Crosstown uses. But all these systems are done exactly as you mentioned. It's just the "adapting to peculiarities" is where it all goes wrong. I suspect this is the crosstown issue, but Metrolinx is an opaque box. Edmonton and London had issues integrating their "out of the box" systems for the Metro and Elizabeth lines respectively, so it's not unusual
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The signal system being used on the Crosstown is a Bombardier (now Alstom) product called Cityflo 650 on the tunneled sections, and (IIRC) Cityflo 350 on the surface portion. It's an off-the-shelf product that has been used in many, many different cities on many, many different lines, although the 650 - the fully automated one providing ATC/ATO - frequently on unmanned "people mover" type of systems. But this is by no means it's first transit application, not by a long shot.

As pointed out, Finch West is using a version of Hitachi's (formerly Thales) Seltrac product. It's a totally different system, although it is functionally identical to the Cityflo 350 product - and nothing at all like the version of Seltrac formerly used on the Scarborough RT.

Because the two systems are completely independent from the other, there should be no possibility of any failure in one propagating to the other. I say should, as I don't know how the scheduling functions have been integrated into the two systems. If they are centrally controlled - like the existing subway lines - than there remains a potential common failure mode there.

generalcanada said:
As others have said, integration of multiple different types of signaling Above ground and below ground. Plus, the contract itself is just bad, you literally can't change anything. Everything is basically being settled behind the scenes in court.
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Except that the migration point between the two systems is not the problem. In fact, it's worked flawlessly since the last upgrade in August/September.

Dan
 
Admiral Beez said:
Given the ongoing testing challenges and a lack of confidence in system reliability, legal disputes, and contractual complexities, my best guess is it opens in spring/summer 2026.

That'll be almost 20 years since then-Mayor David Miller announced the project.
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They should hire som FAANG developers to fix the signalling bugs since they seem to be able to finish products within a week 🤣
 
bono47 said:
how does one correct a wildly speculative and unsubstantiated rumour?
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actual facts to prove otherwise... we saw every time they went silent, months later they admit there was a problem, from the software issues to the big yonge station underpinning debacle...
if there was no issue they wouldve announced the 3 month countdown by now since they are at 99% completion. not to mention isnt it about time they give us the monthly update as they did before and was promised? did that die with verster's dismissal?
 
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