Toronto Eglinton Line 5 | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | Arcadis

[stevedean]

For the record, the training time - 30 days per class - is the exact same amount of training as on the subway or SRT.

Help me understand this one - has training not been going on for months already? How many batches of drivers do they need to train?
How is it that in the 50s/60s they only needed 1 month of training TOTAL - and now it takes months upon months with no official date given.

 

[drum118]

Happen to see a 2 car train at Black Creek today heading to the yard. It was doing about 10km making the turn into the yard off the mainline and real slow doing so..

 

[Coolibop]

I would remind everyone that the software issues did not take that long to fix, nor were the big holdup on the project. All eyes on any slowdown are immensely amplified at this juncture; it sounds pretty routine/manageable.

Agree, but the same question..... did ML buy a proven product or was this custom designed during the project execution?

- Paul

The answer from Metrolinx would most certainly be 'YES'.

 

[stevedean]

I would remind everyone that the software issues did not take that long to fix, nor were the big holdup on the project. All eyes on any slowdown are immensely amplified at this juncture; it sounds pretty routine/manageable.


The answer from Metrolinx would most certainly be 'YES'.

Software issues were mentioned all the way back in March: https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/major-co...urance-issues-outstanding-metrolinx-1.6821701

 

[ZEBuilder]

Exactly!
You're telling me, there is no LRT system like this in the world? Even in Canada, are there not above/below ground systems in Calgary, Edmonton, and Ottawa?
We really had to create a brand new system for the very special Eglinton...

KW's LRT had similar issues with the signaling software when the line initially opened. KW's operates with LOS and ATP with ATP purely for the dedicated corridors (Mill to Fairway along the CN and Hydro right of way, Uptown Waterloo to Northfield along the existing train right of way) however the transition from LOS to ATP was causing problems initially and it got to the point where they said we'll open the line without having ATP functional and purely have LOS on the entire system. Eventually they got ATP to work and then patched it into the software but this was easily a couple of months into the line already operating.

Eglinton could have taken KW's system but the software is for ATP/LOS so you'd have to still significantly alter it if you were to take it for line specific issues.

 

[jordanmkasla2009]

KW's LRT had similar issues with the signaling software when the line initially opened. KW's operates with LOS and ATP with ATP purely for the dedicated corridors (Mill to Fairway along the CN and Hydro right of way, Uptown Waterloo to Northfield along the existing train right of way) however the transition from LOS to ATP was causing problems initially and it got to the point where they said we'll open the line without having ATP functional and purely have LOS on the entire system. Eventually they got ATP to work and then patched it into the software but this was easily a couple of months into the line already operating.

Eglinton could have taken KW's system but the software is for ATP/LOS so you'd have to still significantly alter it if you were to take it for line specific issues.

And the biggest issue in KW was crosstalk between vehicles entering and exiting ATP sections at the same time which would cause vehicles to emergency brake with the ATP display showing “HH” as if either vehicle had infringed on the others protected moving block.

 

[T3G]

KW's LRT had similar issues with the signaling software when the line initially opened. KW's operates with LOS and ATP with ATP purely for the dedicated corridors (Mill to Fairway along the CN and Hydro right of way, Uptown Waterloo to Northfield along the existing train right of way) however the transition from LOS to ATP was causing problems initially and it got to the point where they said we'll open the line without having ATP functional and purely have LOS on the entire system. Eventually they got ATP to work and then patched it into the software but this was easily a couple of months into the line already operating.

Eglinton could have taken KW's system but the software is for ATP/LOS so you'd have to still significantly alter it if you were to take it for line specific issues.

For what possible reason would they need ATP for the dedicated sections of ION? At the speeds and frequencies they run, surely a meeting between trains isn't very likely? This isn't a subway service running every 2 minutes...

 

[ZEBuilder]

For what possible reason would they need ATP for the dedicated sections of ION? At the speeds and frequencies they run, surely a meeting between trains isn't very likely? This isn't a subway service running every 2 minutes...

It's not likely but if a train were to get super delayed once they are operating at 5-7.5 minute frequencies it could happen. I know currently when a train gets delayed from loading and unloading during rush hour it'll often times get delayed by 3-4 minutes, so by the time KW gets to those higher frequencies you could get trains catching each other, it's certainly better to have it in that case then not.

 

[smallspy]

Help me understand this one - has training not been going on for months already? How many batches of drivers do they need to train?
How is it that in the 50s/60s they only needed 1 month of training TOTAL - and now it takes months upon months with no official date given.

30 days per class, and at least for now they are able to teach two classes simultaneously - a morning class and an afternoon class.

2 sets of classes have already completed their training*, with the third not quite half-way through.

Training on the subway has gotten a bit more intense with the addition of more equipment and capabilities to the trains, and a far more complex signal system.

*I saw that 2 sets of classes have completed training, but that is not true for the second class. They had a substantial portion of their at-the-throttle training curtailed due to the signal system issues in October.The hope is that the signal system will be stable enough - and indeed, that appears that it might now be the case - to allow them to finish that portion of their training during the simulated revenue service.

I would remind everyone that the software issues did not take that long to fix, nor were the big holdup on the project. All eyes on any slowdown are immensely amplified at this juncture; it sounds pretty routine/manageable.

Those were the original software problems going back a year or so, and well before everything was completed enough to allow TTC access for training.

This new problem is one that had not been seen before, and was deemed to be safety-critical.

Dan

 

[Coolibop]

Those were the original software problems going back a year or so, and well before everything was completed enough to allow TTC access for training.

This new problem is one that had not been seen before, and was deemed to be safety-critical.

Dan

I understand. I was just trying to convey that we'd all be more forgiving of it if the construction portion went smoothly...

 

[jordanmkasla2009]

For what possible reason would they need ATP for the dedicated sections of ION? At the speeds and frequencies they run, surely a meeting between trains isn't very likely? This isn't a subway service running every 2 minutes...

The signalling system was designed for the eventuality of 5 minute frequency intervals with doubled trains. While is not needed in the on-street portion between south of Waterloo Public Square/Willis Way and north of Mill Stations because of the speeds of 50 km/h or lower and transit signals at intersections the other sections do need to have ATP in order to allow multiple trains in each direction to enter these sections without needing to have track warrants. The off-street sections permit speeds of 70 km/h in sections and so they do need a signalling system to protect against collisions between trains

 

[IRT_BMT_IND]

For what possible reason would they need ATP for the dedicated sections of ION? At the speeds and frequencies they run, surely a meeting between trains isn't very likely? This isn't a subway service running every 2 minutes...

I think for a new build situation there is little or no difference in cost these days between a conventional block signal system with lineside signals and train stops and a more advanced signalling system with moving blocks (it might even be cheaper due to less lineside hardware). So I guess from a planning perspective there's little downside with going with the more advanced system even if you will never run trains frequently enough to take advantage of all its capabilities.

 

[rankman]

The line runs automated in its grade-separated right-of-way underground/elevated (Automatic Train Operation or ATO), and once it emerges at Laird, it switches to manual control since it runs on street (Automatic Train Protection or ATP). Transitioning between the two systems on one line mid-service I believe is somewhat unconventional and is probably behind some of the headaches.

Edmonton experienced similar problems and delays with its Metro LRT Line. The downtown portion is double lined onto the existing Capital Line tracks which uses a fixed block control system. Thales which wrote the train control software claimed they could integrate the Metro Line’s moving block control system with the older fixed block system. The software was ultimately unable to deliver the desired headways and was replaced by software from Alstom.

 

[bono47]

Edmonton experienced similar problems and delays with its Metro LRT Line. The downtown portion is double lined onto the existing Capital Line tracks which uses a fixed block control system. Thales which wrote the train control software claimed they could integrate the Metro Line’s moving block control system with the older fixed block system. The software was ultimately unable to deliver the desired headways and was replaced by software from Alstom.

In this case Crosstown LRT is using Alstom as its software provider; doesn't appear to have helped much so far.

 

[nfitz]

In this case Crosstown LRT is using Alstom as its software provider; doesn't appear to have helped much so far.

There was huge problems on the Elizabeth Line (Crossrail) in London. I think the system is from Siemens (part of it is - being mainline rail it's complicated with multiple systems).

I think this is just the nature of the beast these days. Line 1 seemed to go relatively smoothly in terms of operations- at least once they got competent vendors. Much of it was Alstom in the end.

I think a lot of this is just the nature of the beast. I'm not sure why the early 1970s system in Montreal and early 1980s system on the SRT seemed to be less problematic. Perhaps the system tries to do too much now?