London Rapid Transit (U/C)

[ARG1]

GO should be running intercity commuter services in all of areas of Ontario, it is called Government of ONTARIO. This would mean services in Greater Ottawa, London, and Windsor to start as long as it's not run by a bunch of Toronto-centric bureaucrats who can't get their heads around the fact that not everyone wants to go to Toronto. This is what killed the GO rail service to London..............it was designed and built for Torontonians and not Londoners. Only someone who has never been to London, except at the ribbon cutting ceremony, would be stupid enough to build a "commuter" line that takes 4 hours to a destination no Londoner needs to get to, and all while not bothering to check the London Transit schedule to find out that you couldn't catch the only train by transit because it leaves before any of the morning London buses arrive downtown.

Listen its not that I disagree with your assertion that the government should provide services to non-Toronto centric areas, but your logic that they should do that because the service is called "Government of Ontario Train/Bus" is silly. Metrolinx has a mandate, and that mandate only covers specific regions and cities (hint, London is not one of them). And then your assertion that the London Pilot service was designed by people who thought it would be used by people who wanted to spend 4h travelling between London and Toronto, you got any proof of that? You have proof that this was the mindset that the provincial government came with when executing this pilot? This sounds like projection from your end.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Listen its not that I disagree with your assertion that the government should provide services to non-Toronto centric areas, but your logic that they should do that because the service is called "Government of Ontario Train/Bus" is silly. Metrolinx has a mandate, and that mandate only covers specific regions and cities (hint, London is not one of them). And then your assertion that the London Pilot service was designed by people who thought it would be used by people who wanted to spend 4h travelling between London and Toronto, you got any proof of that? You have proof that this was the mindset that the provincial government came with when executing this pilot? This sounds like projection from your end.

The London Toronto service was political for sure. The rest of what you're saying I agree with. We can and probably should be doing to connect places like Sarnia, Windsor and London to each other. And improving frequency between London, Toronto and Detroit, MI.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

There's nothing stopping a bunch of municipalities from coming together and creating a joint agency/corporation to start up a regional service. There isn't anything that says this is exclusively the responsibility of the province. And I'd argue if they did that, they could probably shame the province into funding it. But part of the transit problem in this country is that every level of government wants the level higher up to take care of it.

1000 percent agreed. There is no drive in the London Area for this so the staus quo remains. Look at Kitchener-Waterloo and look at London, you tell me who's doing better.

 

[micheal_can]

Listen its not that I disagree with your assertion that the government should provide services to non-Toronto centric areas, but your logic that they should do that because the service is called "Government of Ontario Train/Bus" is silly. Metrolinx has a mandate, and that mandate only covers specific regions and cities (hint, London is not one of them). And then your assertion that the London Pilot service was designed by people who thought it would be used by people who wanted to spend 4h travelling between London and Toronto, you got any proof of that? You have proof that this was the mindset that the provincial government came with when executing this pilot? This sounds like projection from your end.

Do you know what Metrolinx's mandate is?

Hint - none of it has Toronto centric wording.

We Are Metrolinx

Welcome to the largest transportation investment in North America's history.

www.metrolinx.com

 

[DirectionNorth]

Do you know what Metrolinx's mandate is?

Hint - none of it has Toronto centric wording.

We Are Metrolinx

Welcome to the largest transportation investment in North America's history.

www.metrolinx.com

The mandate of Metrolinx, from the Minister's office straight to Metrolinx HQ.

provide leadership in the co-ordination, planning, financing, development and implementation of an integrated transit network in the Greater Golden Horseshoe (GGH)

I'm not against expanding the mandate, but the argument presented, as it stands, is simply not supported by logic or evidence. Or political will, which is a much bigger barrier than anything else I've listed.

 

[micheal_can]

The mandate of Metrolinx, from the Minister's office straight to Metrolinx HQ.

I'm not against expanding the mandate, but the argument presented, as it stands, is simply not supported by logic or evidence. Or political will, which is a much bigger barrier than anything else I've listed.

You missed this part:
Work in a collaborative partnership with MTO to support the actions outlined in
Connecting the Southwest: A draft transportation plan for southwestern Ontario, by
completing technical rail planning studies in southwestern Ontario and identifying
opportunities to enhance passenger rail train speeds and service levels on existing
railway corridors. To support this work, Metrolinx will share with MTO information,
data, and expertise through participation in joint project teams. In addition to
southwestern Ontario rail planning studies, work with MTO for other rail studies as
needed.

It is on the 5th page.

 

[ARG1]

You missed this part:
Work in a collaborative partnership with MTO to support the actions outlined in
Connecting the Southwest: A draft transportation plan for southwestern Ontario, by
completing technical rail planning studies in southwestern Ontario and identifying
opportunities to enhance passenger rail train speeds and service levels on existing
railway corridors. To support this work, Metrolinx will share with MTO information,
data, and expertise through participation in joint project teams. In addition to
southwestern Ontario rail planning studies, work with MTO for other rail studies as
needed.

It is on the 5th page.

I'm not sure where to find the original legal documents (someone more familiar with Metrolinx can chime in), but I found this as evidence:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1063164612399501312

In short, Metrolinx has a mandate from the provincial government that outlines which regions/counties they have jurisdiction over, and have the freedom to operate service and plan projects in. Anything beyond those borders can only be done via direct order from the provincial government (See: London Pilot). Fact of the matter is, London is not in their jurisdiction, and until the provincial government steps in and adds London to the list of regions they operate in, Metrolinx won't operate or plan anything outside of direct orders from the provincial government (hence why Metrolinx has 0 presence in cities like Ottawa and Windsor).

The reason why GO seems like a Toronto/GTHA centric organization is because by all counts, it is - their charter locks them into operating in the GGHA.

The London Toronto service was political for sure. The rest of what you're saying I agree with. We can and probably should be doing to connect places like Sarnia, Windsor and London to each other. And improving frequency between London, Toronto and Detroit, MI.

I'm not saying it wasn't political, I'm asking for evidence that the mindset the province went into this was that it would mainly be used by people commuting for 4h between London and Toronto. Those are 2 separate things.

 

[ssiguy2]

There are over 800,000 people in the greater London Economic Region as defined by StatsCan.........Middlesex, Elgin, and Oxford counties all of which are growing very quickly. There is a solid need for GO commuter bus system and the subsidies that come along with it, including fare integration. Ottawa also needs a similar GO system to serve it's outer commuter suburbs as does Windsor connecting to Leamington. The Windsor to Leamington stretch has 70,000 people.

It's a matter of fairness. If Toronto commuters get GO bus/transit expansion free of charge and a subsidized fare structure including fare integration, then why shouldn't areas outside of the GGH? Last time I checked, people outside the GGH pay the same taxes as those in it so they should enjoy similar benefits. These are not some little cities asking for Toronto benefits but the 3 biggest cities outside the GGH. Ottawa has over 1.1 million and the nation's capitol, London has a commuter shed of over 800,000 and is {arguably with Hamilton} the 3rd most important city in the province, and Windsor/Essex has 500,000 and the busiest international crossing in the country and a huge manufacturing base.

This kind of inequity from Queen's Park is what produces animosity between the GGH and the rest of the province and that is not healthy economically, socially, or politically.

 

[ARG1]

There are over 800,000 people in the greater London Economic Region as defined by StatsCan.........Middlesex, Elgin, and Oxford counties all of which are growing very quickly. There is a solid need for GO commuter bus system and the subsidies that come along with it, including fare integration. Ottawa also needs a similar GO system to serve it's outer commuter suburbs as does Windsor connecting to Leamington. The Windsor to Leamington stretch has 70,000 people.

Ottawa needs a GO like system? Where?

STO and OCTranspo already have fare integration, so that's not a problem. I've used some STO busses to get around Gatineau and especially used the Rapidbus, its mostly fine if you need to get around some of the core suburbs. The only real issue that persists is getting around the region quickly, but even then that's a product of much of infrastructure not being available due to O-train construction (Bus services between Kanata and Lincoln Fields are a nightmare to use atm). Furthermore, based on the performance of Stage 1, I'm concerned about how quickly Line 3 will be able to move people from Bayshore/Kanata to Downtown, not to mention all the way to Place D'Orleans. However, these aren't the type of issues that need to be solved by bringing in Metrolinx and creating a 3rd bus system, these are all issues that the city is fully capable of solving and can be solved for cheap (a lot can be said about building a Trillium Line style service on the Beechburg Sub which the city could easily afford in the next 5-10 years), and simply running more regional express bus services along the 417, something OCTranspo should be more than capable of.

It's a matter of fairness. If Toronto commuters get GO bus/transit expansion free of charge and a subsidized fare structure including fare integration, then why shouldn't areas outside of the GGH? Last time I checked, people outside the GGH pay the same taxes as those in it so they should enjoy similar benefits. These are not some little cities asking for Toronto benefits but the 3 biggest cities outside the GGH. Ottawa has over 1.1 million and the nation's capitol, London has a commuter shed of over 800,000 and is {arguably with Hamilton} the 3rd most important city in the province, and Windsor/Essex has 500,000 and the busiest international crossing in the country and a huge manufacturing base.

This kind of inequity from Queen's Park is what produces animosity between the GGH and the rest of the province and that is not healthy economically, socially, or politically.

Ok, I want you to state exactly what you're asking for. You bring up Ottawa, but the Ottawa region already has full fare integration excluding VIA, and the Otrain Phases 2+3 will bring rail services within 5km of like 80% of the population. The only reason Phase 3 has been put on hold is due to how incompetent the construction of Phase 1 has been. London could've had a lot more built if it wasn't for local politics. You want London to have a GO like system? Please tell me where and how. You claim that 800k live in Middlesex, Elgin, and Oxford Counties, but you do realize just how massive that area is right? Even if I take your word for it that those 3 counties combined have a population of 800k, London alone has 400k over only 437km^2. Serving the 3 counties using GO busses would almost certainly leave those routes being some of the lowest ridership routes on GO's network. Fact of the matter is, London is far from being a city that has the need for a provincially subsidized regional bus service, and it certainly shouldn't be a priority for the provincial government.

 

[micheal_can]

Ottawa needs a GO like system? Where?

STO and OCTranspo already have fare integration, so that's not a problem. I've used some STO busses to get around Gatineau and especially used the Rapidbus, its mostly fine if you need to get around some of the core suburbs. The only real issue that persists is getting around the region quickly, but even then that's a product of much of infrastructure not being available due to O-train construction (Bus services between Kanata and Lincoln Fields are a nightmare to use atm). Furthermore, based on the performance of Stage 1, I'm concerned about how quickly Line 3 will be able to move people from Bayshore/Kanata to Downtown, not to mention all the way to Place D'Orleans. However, these aren't the type of issues that need to be solved by bringing in Metrolinx and creating a 3rd bus system, these are all issues that the city is fully capable of solving and can be solved for cheap (a lot can be said about building a Trillium Line style service on the Beechburg Sub which the city could easily afford in the next 5-10 years), and simply running more regional express bus services along the 417, something OCTranspo should be more than capable of.

Ottawa and London are a unique city in that they do have commuting from the outlying areas and it is possible that if something was set up, it may be successful. If we had a provincial crown agency that was focused on commuting in the province, we would see at the very least buses connecting these outlying communities.

 

[ARG1]

Ottawa and London are a unique city in that they do have commuting from the outlying areas and it is possible that if something was set up, it may be successful. If we had a provincial crown agency that was focused on commuting in the province, we would see at the very least buses connecting these outlying communities.

Have you looked a the population numbers for these outlying areas and communities? They all have population counts sitting in the 4 digits, with the only outlier I can find being Carleton Place at 12k. For contrast, Orangeville has a population of 28k that dwarfs over all of these communities, and still that town is only served by 4 peak hour busses to Brampton Terminal (not even Toronto), and 1 midday bus in each direction. Exactly where are you going to find the demand for any more than 1 bus per direction per day?

Quite literally, there is no fiscal justification for setting up new intercity bus services for these communities at least in the near term where the province has much MUCH larger fish to fry.

The same applies to London btw, most of the villages that surround London basically don't have a large enough population to justify setting up and investing into a regional bus network.

EDIT: Also want to point out just how far these places actually are. Renfrew for instance is about 1 hour away from Ottawa, or roughly the same distance as BARRIE is from Toronto. Not only do these population centres have basically no population, but they're incredibly far and thus these services would be expensive to run.

 

[micheal_can]

Have you looked a the population numbers for these outlying areas and communities? They all have population counts sitting in the 4 digits, with the only outlier I can find being Carleton Place at 12k. For contrast, Orangeville has a population of 28k that dwarfs over all of these communities, and still that town is only served by 4 peak hour busses to Brampton Terminal (not even Toronto), and 1 midday bus in each direction. Exactly where are you going to find the demand for any more than 1 bus per direction per day?

Quite literally, there is no fiscal justification for setting up new intercity bus services for these communities at least in the near term where the province has much MUCH larger fish to fry.

The same applies to London btw, most of the villages that surround London basically don't have a large enough population to justify setting up and investing into a regional bus network.

EDIT: Also want to point out just how far these places actually are. Renfrew for instance is about 1 hour away from Ottawa, or roughly the same distance as BARRIE is from Toronto. Not only do these population centres have basically no population, but they're incredibly far and thus these services would be expensive to run.

This falls under a solution to a problem that we don't want to admit - sprawl. Picture taking a place like Renfrew and building 20+ story towers. How quickly would the sell or rent if there was a good transit connection to Ottawa? The same can be asked of places like St Thomas.

 

[ssiguy2]

For Ottawa I was specifically thinking of Carleton Place. For Windsor it is definitely the Windsor/Esses/Kingsville/Leamington corridor which has 70,000 people and is already such a heavy commuter route that it is currently being twinned between Leamington & Windsor.

For London, it is right smack dab in the middle of a number of commuter towns. St.Thomas 47,000, Ingersol 14,000, Woodstock 50,000, Aylmer 8500, Tillsonburg 19,000, Strathroy 18,000, Middlesex Centre 23,000, Thames Centre 14,0000, as well as St.Mary's 7,000 and Stratford 32,000 in Perth counties. What also makes a GO bus network particularly competitive in London is that London has no urban freeways so the buses can move just as fast as any car and faster if they can use the new London BRT routes.

London is not only a large city but also a regional one for education, healthcare, gov't services, shopping, entertainment, and, of course, employment.

 

[kEiThZ]

This falls under a solution to a problem that we don't want to admit - sprawl. Picture taking a place like Renfrew and building 20+ story towers. How quickly would the sell or rent if there was a good transit connection to Ottawa? The same can be asked of places like St Thomas.

You're promoting transit induced sprawl. Why the heck should anybody build 20 storey towers in Renfrew over simply building more quadplexes and townhouses in Ottawa? All to justify buses to Renfrew? Ridiculous.

And even if towers are to be put up for cheap housing, there's no need to be 90+ km from Parliament Hill. Plenty of cheap land within the service area of OC Transpo and STO. And if necessary, just beyond that.

 

[kEiThZ]

For Ottawa I was specifically thinking of Carleton Place.

Personally never known anybody in Carleton Place or a town like that that was really interested in bus commutes. Not in the least, because they tended to have a wide distribution of final destinations (not all going downtown) which made any bus commute quite difficult. Any subsidized bus service would end up about as successful as GO's 4 hr train from London to Toronto.

For London, it is right smack dab in the middle of a number of commuter towns. St.Thomas 47,000, Ingersol 14,000, Woodstock 50,000, Aylmer 8500, Tillsonburg 19,000, Strathroy 18,000, Middlesex Centre 23,000, Thames Centre 14,0000, as well as St.Mary's 7,000 and Stratford 32,000 in Perth counties.

Simply being near a city doesn't make them "commuter towns" for that city. For example, why would you assume that somebody in Stratford is more interested in commuting to London than KWC? And go ahead and show us how commuter interest in Woodstock compares between London, KWC, Hamilton and even the GTA.

The discussion here gets ridiculous when it's all based on emotional nonsense and appeals to fairness that never consider actual need. You don't care about ridership. You want buses (even if they are empty) running to these places just to say they have regional service. The very fact that these cities aren't themselves clamouring for regional transport (especially to London) over all the other priorities they have should tell you that they don't consider it substantially important. Put it this way, how many of them have subsidized their own transit services to London or have high shuttle demand to London? I would bet Pearson Airport shuttles from London have higher demand than commuters from every town you listed.