Transit City Plan

[Whoaccio]

I would hold alot more faith in TC were it clearer on the design aims. "LRT", as far as I am concerned, is a next to meaningless catchphrase. Depending on the context, LRTs are simultaneously slow, cozy, urbane streetcars (insert European caffee reference here) as well as lightening fast, hyper cost efficient and the next best thing since sliced bread. The are two contradictory systems. If we ran a Calgary style LRT down a road, I would expect urban fabric to get worse, not better. If we built a Spadina style LRT down a road, I would expect transit service to get worse, not better. Kudos to TC for designing a system whose two goals come directly at the expense of eachother.

 

[RedRocket191]

1. Yonge line to Steeles (or a little further if York Region provides funding)
2. Spadina line to Steeles, period
3. Replace SRT with subway to Scarborough Centre
4. Finish Sheppard subway to Scarborough Centre
5. Eglinton Subway (how far in each direction I don't know, since I don't know the street in Toronto that well, all I can say is that subway along Eglinton in Mississauga at least would not be feasible right now, not by a long shot)
6. Downtown Relief Line (routing I'm unsure of whether Queen or another street would be better, although I'm biased toward having it go through Union
7. Expand the Bloor line further west, preferably to MCC, but at the very least Dixie/Dundas

And that's all the subway I think we'll need for a while to come

1) There is a case to go all the way to Richmond Hill Centre. Funding would not be an issue, as a combination of the investment strategy and already committed provincial funding will be enough - in my opinion anyway.

2) Spadina Line should go to VCC because it's fully funded, and turning down something that has been planned, funded and weeks away from groundbreaking is political suicide. If we ever want the people in Ottawa to take Toronto seriously, we have to play the game. Scarberiankhatru makes this argument much more eloquently.

3) The main complaints about the SRT are the capacity issues and the transfer at Kennedy. I believe that extending the SRT along Eglinton towards the west end makes use of the existing infrastructure, eliminates the transfer at Kennedy and can lead to higher capacity through upgraded signalling. I believe it can also form the basis for a network of ART lines in Scarborough to connect other destinations like STC to UTSC. As for winter operations, does anyone know how JFK's AirTrain does in the snow?

4) I'm going to wait until the RTP comes out. Forget Eglinton - this is where the real collision of ideas is going to come. By that time, the Sheppard East EA will likely be approved, and the RTP will be approved. I'm curious to see what happens.

5) In the east, this line could travel as far as West Hill, or up to UTSC. In the east, the line airport is a given, with a branch as far as Mississauga City Centre via Eglinton+Hurontario or via the Mississauga Transitway alignment.

6) I agree with you it should go through Union, but my vision of this line makes heavy use of the railway corridor.

7) I would go as far as the East Mall with a branch towards Sherway Gardens to support further high-density development occurring there. I would need to see land-use policies for Dundas before going any further because redevelopment potential is mixed. Some sites are underused, but others are successful. I still believe the best way to reach MCC is through regional rail. Passengers bound for destinations along Bloor would transfer at Kipling, while passengers heading downtown would stay onboard.

 

[Rainforest]

I'm not advocating subway all around the GTA. For me, the following would make a decent network:

1. Yonge line to Steeles (or a little further if York Region provides funding)
2. Spadina line to Steeles, period
3. Replace SRT with subway to Scarborough Centre
4. Finish Sheppard subway to Scarborough Centre
5. Eglinton Subway (how far in each direction I don't know, since I don't know the street in Toronto that well, all I can say is that subway along Eglinton in Mississauga at least would not be feasible right now, not by a long shot)
6. Downtown Relief Line (routing I'm unsure of whether Queen or another street would be better, although I'm biased toward having it go through Union
7. Expand the Bloor line further west, preferably to MCC, but at the very least Dixie/Dundas

Those are all worthy as subways (although I'd debate #7, agreeing with RR that a REX between Union and MCC should come first).

However, what if say #1 to 5 are built within 15 years, then funding dries up and #6 (DRL) stalls? The peak hour passenger flow from the new developments along the Sheppard and Eglinton subways will overwhelm the Yonge line.

We need an attainable funding plan to create a consistent transit network.

 

[Rainforest]

Rainforest

How does being "at grade" make LRT more flexible? Can LRTs short turn on a side street? Can LRTs pull over to let another one pass?

No, it cannot. LRT is not as flexible as a bus.

The meaning of my word was routing flexibility: can run either in dedicated ROW or in on-street ROW, while ICTS always requires a dedicated ROW.

Being consigned to a track makes LRT as flexible as subway and ICTS, but at least the other two options have greater capacity, speed and appeal.

The subway has a greater capacity and appeal, along with a greater cost. You get what you pay for.

ICTS, on the other hand, has no inherent capacity or speed edge over LRT in a dedicated ROW. Automated train control? If needed, it can be installed on the LRT vehicles that will serve Eglinton line, while retaining compatibility with other vehicles in the majority of spare parts, track width, facilities.

With LRT, a portion of Eglinton line may be fully grade-separate, other portions in on-street ROW. With ICTS, all that flexibility is gone and the line must be fully grade-separate.

 

[Dan416]

Those are all worthy as subways (although I'd debate #7, agreeing with RR that a REX between Union and MCC should come first).

However, what if say #1 to 5 are built within 15 years, then funding dries up and #6 (DRL) stalls? The peak hour passenger flow from the new developments along the Sheppard and Eglinton subways will overwhelm the Yonge line.

We need an attainable funding plan to create a consistent transit network.

Sorry I wasn't advocating a specific order for the projects. If I was, #7 would be first

DRL should be near the top though. Even before Eglinton. As it is, Spadina to VCC is most likely going to be built.

 

[isittimetomoveyet]

My preference would be for number's 5 & 6 first.

 

[Dan416]

I think replacing the SRT and ensuring Sheppard East gets finished properly should be priorities. We don't want more orphan technologies/forced transfers. Let's keep the technology we're using consistent. We should have buses, streetcars/LRTs using the same vehicles and subways, i.e. the subways we use now. And that's it. No ICTS, no mini-metros.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

If Sheppard over to Downsview counts as #8, that list of 7+1 subway projects would probably be all the city will ever need...their actual terminus points, alignments, and phasing are wide open to discussion, but it is a good long term list of subway corridors and extensions (not a single current subway line terminates in the right place). The only other place in the city that I think subways would be warranted is Queen, but that line would be very long term and probably would never get built (for non-financial reasons). Eglinton would be a big job but the rest, even combined, aren't monumental projects at all. But no one who supports this level of subway construction thinks that that's all we'll ever need (edit - all the transit infrastructure we'll ever need). There's lots of places that need LRT and no one opposes an all-day both-way higher frequency GO revolution. We can do all of it...not by 2015, though.

 

[jeicow]

I would go as far as the East Mall with a branch towards Sherway Gardens to support further high-density development occurring there.

What high density development at Sherway? Two towers built with the possibility of one more doesn't seem like much at all.

 

[RedRocket191]

What high density development at Sherway? Two towers built with the possibility of one more doesn't seem like much at all.

There's plenty of parking lot that could be developed. Cadillac Fairview was fairly successful in intensifying the land use around the Eaton Centre over time, and they could do the same with the right incentives. A subway could be just that incentive.

 

[Dan416]

If Sheppard over to Downsview counts as #8, that list of 7+1 subway projects would probably be all the city will ever need...their actual terminus points, alignments, and phasing are wide open to discussion, but it is a good long term list of subway corridors and extensions (not a single current subway line terminates in the right place). The only other place in the city that I think subways would be warranted is Queen, but that line would be very long term and probably would never get built (for non-financial reasons). Eglinton would be a big job but the rest, even combined, aren't monumental projects at all. But no one who supports this level of subway construction thinks that that's all we'll ever need (edit - all the transit infrastructure we'll ever need). There's lots of places that need LRT and no one opposes an all-day both-way higher frequency GO revolution. We can do all of it...not by 2015, though.

Oh yeah I forgot about Sheppard to Downsview. That should be built along with Sheppard East to Scarborough Centre though; might as well finish Sheppard all at once I think.

 

[adma]

What high density development at Sherway? Two towers built with the possibility of one more doesn't seem like much at all.

Think of the environs around Square One--or even Scarborough Town Centre. Potential aplenty, as long as you can get the NIMBYs down (speaking of which, that awful plaza at Evans + Browns Line is a natural for urban-intensification)

 

[dowlingm]

The thing about Downsview-Sheppard/Yonge is that the eastern connection is likely to be either at Wilson or Sheppard West GO because they intersect at right angles - although a Spadina-Spadina North type link might be contemplated.

@Rainforest, the thing about LRT's flexibility is that while Steve Munro touts LRT over ICTS for that reason the TTC's love of schedules over headways will always make them look at full segregation adoringly.

 

[mastershake]

I've been casually following this thread, but I haven't read every post, so I apologize in advance if all of this has been said. I've lived at Morningside & Sheppard, Don Mills & Sheppard, Leslie & Sheppard and now Yonge and Sheppard all in the past three years, so i thought I would throw in my two cents.

Travelling from yonge street to Eastern Scarborough is terribly slow. You can take a slow local bus like the Finch, or York mills all the way out, which takes well over an hour in rush hour times. Or you could take the sheppard subway, then take the 190, then take another bus from Scarborough Town centre. There is no easy way to do it. Here are some observations/thoughts about transit in the north east part of the city that I have.

1. A large majority of people who get on a sheppard bus at Don Mills station get off at Consumer's road. It's really too bad they have to get of the subway then wait for a bus to go another km or so.

2. There are a lot of technology jobs in markham, with a lot of young employees and interns that live in toronto. If the Sheppard subway was extended out to McCowan or so it would be a lot easier to get into markham

3. A lot of buses in Scarborough meet at Scarborough Town Centre. If STC is easy to get to, most of the rest of scarborough is (including U of T). Sheppard should terminate at STC, and so should the Bloor Danforth

4. Most people on the Steeles, Finch, Sheppard, and York Mills buses get off at major intersections. Better express buses (with dedicated lanes) could really improve east/west transit

5. It's about 20km from yonge to morningside. If LRT would be used on long routes like this it would only take one intersection being closed down to bring the whole line to a standstill.

6. I lived at morningside and sheppard. I think it would be ridiculous to have an LRT, or subway out that far.

7. You can have both express and local service at the same time. People complaining that people won't walk 500m to a subway station should realize that buses can provide local service on routes the subways cover.

8. Bus Rapid Transit would be cheaper, just as effective, wouldn't suffer from single points of failure, and could be implemented faster.

9. Some of the stations on the sheppard line are overly cavernous. We could probably be more cost effective in our subway building.

10. Yonge street north of Finch is absolutely full of buses. A lot of buses have a hard time getting in and out of the TTC and GO bus terminals

11. Extending the Yonge subway to Richmond Hill would eliminate most of these buses, and save a lot of people a transfer.

12. I don't see what the advantage is of LRT over a well designed BRT system.

13. It bothers me that LRT is the only mode being considered. in Waterloo the environmental assessment involved deciding the best mode of rapid transit. They didn't jump to the conclusion of "LRT" and then try to find reasons to support it

14. Often southbound trains on the Yonge Line are quite full by Sheppard Station. I imagine stations further down are quite congested

So I think we should extend sheppard East to Scarborough Town Centre, and West to connect with the University Spadina Line. The SRT should be replaced with subway. Yonge should probably go to Richmond Hill centre.

Some type of downtown relief line is probably needed, but I have less of an opinion of that. Same with Eglinton, I don't know much about it.

The rest of the network should have some kind of bus rapid transit.. It could start out like viva, and then improve to me more like OC Transpo's transit way. There should be dedicated lanes where possible. Imagine the same buses viva uses, only painted a bright TTC red. The bus stops could be nicely paved, sheltered and landscaped, and the dedicated lane could be paved in a distinct way.

 

[Panzerfaust]

12. I don't see what the advantage is of LRT over a well designed BRT system.

The capacity of BRT is considerably lower than LRT unless bypass lanes are included for express operation. That takes up far more road space than what's available in Toronto in most cases. In addition, operating costs are lower over the long term, especially given the rising cost of gas that is already causing fare increases worldwide. That and the vehicles last something like twice as long.