Waterfront Transit Reset Phase 1 Study

[AlvinofDiaspar]

As I should be. There is a tension between value for dollar and awe-inspiring. If I had to spend $4 billion I'd rather spend it on the waterfront LRT or the EELRT. That said...people absolutely do visit NYC to see Grand Central; sometimes it's nice to have something incredible to remind us of where we can reach, and what we can achieve.

It's a good thought exercise that speaks to our values as a people (and as a democratic middle power) I suppose. I am a sucker for awe-inspiring architecture and public works, but something like this - even if I want it - would have trouble passing my own conscience as a citizen.

AoD

 

[W. K. Lis]

Side note, this is a link to a list of the busiest train stations in North America.

Note the names, note the volumes and the number of platforms.

List of busiest railway stations in North America - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Note too that places like Newark and Hoboken are "suburbs" of New York City.

While Toronto has only one today, who knows about in the next century? We could have busy train stations at Casa Loma or Don Mills, or even the Pearson Transit Hub could become one?

From link.

 

[rbt]

On a side note, why does Grand Central have 44 platforms and still much lower ridership than Penn which has only 11?

Grand Central is extremely branchy internally with few tracks actually leading to the station with few opportunities to enter/leave without blocking a large number of tracks. It was designed for long-distance trains with 2 hour dwell times at the station.

 

[Streety McCarface]

Will Penn gain in ridership? I was wondering if East Side access will shift some traffic from Penn to Grand Central.

On a side note, why does Grand Central have 44 platforms and still much lower ridership than Penn which has only 11?

Depends on the economic activity of NYC. Penn Station Access will offset most of the difference made by East Side Access

Grand Central is a terminus station, not a through station like Penn. Also, the LIRR and NJT see higher ridership levels than MNRR

Not exactly original for me to say this - but Union Station will be great - when they finally finish it.

AoD

They'll never finish it. They will continually try to improve it, and I'm okay with that.

So how do they manage that many services with just 11 platforms? Does it have more to do with quicker turnaround times?

Through service. NJT trains can pull through the station to their yards. Grand Central is basically just a giant underground yard.

That made me throw up a little. They don't look much different from a typical dilapidated NYC subway station.

To be fair, at Grand Central, the platforms look a lot nicer when the trains are sitting there, and no one in their right mind would ever wait on the platform for their train to arrive. They walk to the platform when the train is there. The same happens at Union — there's little incentive to improve the platform experience because you have no reason to wait there.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

To be fair, at Grand Central, the platforms look a lot nicer when the trains are sitting there, and no one in their right mind would ever wait on the platform for their train to arrive. They walk to the platform when the train is there. The same happens at Union — there's little incentive to improve the platform experience because you have no reason to wait there.

I beg to differ - riders might not wait there for half an hour for a train, but 10, 15 minutes? You bet they do - especially around rush. The "no one waits on platform" argument is something pushed by GO to stonewall calls to improve the platforms (and guess what - if they are right, we wouldn't be removing tracks and merging platforms like Metrolinx are proposing to do now),.

AoD

 

[Streety McCarface]

I beg to differ - riders might not wait there for half an hour for a train, but 10, 15 minutes? You bet they do - especially around rush. The "no one waits on platform" argument is something pushed by GO to stonewall calls to improve the platforms (and guess what - if they are right, we wouldn't be removing tracks and merging platforms like Metrolinx are proposing to do now),.

AoD

Grand Central is a bit different from Union though, trains are usually waiting for passengers 15-20 minutes before departure since it's a terminus. This is not similar to Penn or Union, where a train might only be waiting for 5 minutes or less.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Grand Central is a bit different from Union though, trains are usually waiting for passengers 15-20 minutes before departure. This is not similar to Penn or Union, where a train might only be waiting for 5 minutes or less.

That's why I am saying Union is a bad analogue for GC - and the rationale you have put forward is basically a GO excuse that had little bearing to reality.

AoD

 

[Streety McCarface]

That's why I am saying Union is a bad analogue for GC - and the rationale you have put forward is basically a GO excuse that had little bearing to reality.

AoD

My apologies, I was mainly referring to the cleanliness of the platforms being less of an issue at GCT. My comment for Union Station was mainly in reference to how things are handled today - Almost everyone waits in the concourse. Whether that will change is something only time will tell, but my point was that it's less of an issue for GCT.

 

[allengeorge]

In his press conference Mayor Tory talked about Humber Bay shores as a problem, that is - it was developed before transit was put in place. But there was no talk about fixing the situation: all the focus was on the East Bayfront. Why? Is something being done currently about the west?

I know that First Capital is proposing a streetcar loop within their Christie Pits plan, but beyond that I haven’t heard any concrete plans. The Waterfront Transit Reset page proposes a dedicated ROW along LSW, but...I don’t think there’s any movement on that, right? What is happening to fix the transit situation in the west?

 

[Northern Light]

In his press conference Mayor Tory talked about Humber Bay shores as a problem, that is - it was developed before transit was put in place. But there was no talk about fixing the situation: all the focus was on the East Bayfront. Why? Is something being done currently about the west?

I know that First Capital is proposing a streetcar loop within their Christie Pits plan, but beyond that I haven’t heard any concrete plans. The Waterfront Transit Reset page proposes a dedicated ROW along LSW, but...I don’t think there’s any movement on that, right? What is happening to fix the transit situation in the west?

There are 2 things under way; one is that First Capital will be required to build a GO station to serve their new development.

The second, as you note, is a West Waterfront LRT; that is much further away.

There is movement to get the current line extended to Dufferin Gate at Exhibition Place.

That I think we will see sooner rather than later.

But that leaves a considerable gap.

We will see the Queen/King/Roncy intersection redone next year; and it will make some modest improvements including additional ROW, but at a very small/marginal scale.

I think you will see the streetcar adjacent to the First Capital lands go into it own ROW as part of that redevelopment.

The residual gap(s) will be how to get from either King/Queen/Roncy, or a point along Lakeshore further west, to Dufferin Gate.

On that there is no sign of action.

 

[allengeorge]

Thanks @Northern Light.

It’s weird to me that the city has chosen to prioritize a new development (East Bayfront) over fixing an existing problem. I wonder if it’s because there are less hassles for the east side, or if there’s another reason. Just wondering as to the rationale.

 

[Northern Light]

Thanks @Northern Light.

It’s weird to me that the city has chosen to prioritize a new development (East Bayfront) over fixing an existing problem. I wonder if it’s because there are less hassles for the east side, or if there’s another reason. Just wondering as to the rationale.

I haven't discussed it w/anyone at the City/TTC, but I suspect there is a desire to get to Dufferin to better serve Liberty Village and to allow for some further intensification in the King/Dufferin area (some of which is going on right now).

Once you get west of that, I expect that there is relatively little development that can occur along any corridor; a new route running south of the railway corridor over to Colborne Lodge or so, then up to Queensway will run primarily through parkland.

There is no return on investment.

King substantially west of Dufferin has some park as well; along with a fair bit of heritage, so pretty limited opportunity there.

As you note, such an investment would largely serve what's already there; and to a lesser degree, First Capital's site.

I suspect that that route isn't thought of as 'the answer' as much as the new GO Station.

My guess, anything west of Dufferin is likely to tied to the future of the CNE grounds and Ontario Place or to any role it might play in freeing up some capacity on the Gardiner.

The one other 'big sell' would be in eliminating a good portion of the Western Beaches parking if an LRT went in, freeing up some area for much needed park space.

 

[DSC]

Thanks @Northern Light.

It’s weird to me that the city has chosen to prioritize a new development (East Bayfront) over fixing an existing problem. I wonder if it’s because there are less hassles for the east side, or if there’s another reason. Just wondering as to the rationale.

Probably because the City (and Province) owned most of the east QQ land and several developers were promised an LRT when they bought it. Also, WT has been in charge of redevelopment and their mantra (even if not realised!) was Transit First - because they learned from previous errors like Humber Bay and City Place?

 

[drum118]

There are 2 things under way; one is that First Capital will be required to build a GO station to serve their new development.

The second, as you note, is a West Waterfront LRT; that is much further away.

There is movement to get the current line extended to Dufferin Gate at Exhibition Place.

That I think we will see sooner rather than later.

But that leaves a considerable gap.

We will see the Queen/King/Roncy intersection redone next year; and it will make some modest improvements including additional ROW, but at a very small/marginal scale.

I think you will see the streetcar adjacent to the First Capital lands go into it own ROW as part of that redevelopment.

The residual gap(s) will be how to get from either King/Queen/Roncy, or a point along Lakeshore further west, to Dufferin Gate.

On that there is no sign of action.

King/Queen/Roncy intersection is still on track to be done in 2021/22 starting some time in January or Q1.

Track work between Humber Bay and Dufferin Loop is not a simple thing to be done and there is talk that plan route maybe change to keep it 100% on the Lake Shore and going over a new bridge at Humber River. Before any track work can be done on the Lake Shore, the exist roads will have to be torn up and be relocated to allow for an ROW between the 2 new roads. It been 10 years since the EA has been approved for the change, but no funds in the City Capital to do it. Until there is funds to do this work, its a pipe dream. The day funds are to be put in the capital budget, the pipe dream disappears to an X time when the new LRT will be up and running.

By 2030+, you may see the new GO station for Park Lawn as well a new streetcar loop including a new ROW on the Lake Shore that surface under the study of all the transit plans. Metrolinx will be calling the shots how the GO station and the corridor expansion will be built.

An EA will be require for the change to the current Lake shore that will become wider, be move to the north and the new ROW. This is outside the plan redevelopment of the lands with the new GO station and Loop being part of it.

 

[drum118]

Join us for a virtual Community Consultation on February 17th and learn more about ongoing work for the Waterfront East Light Rail Transit (LRT) Extension and help plan the future of Toronto’s waterfront community.

This engagement will:
· Provide the public with an overview of the Waterfront East LRT Extension from Union Station to Cherry Street
· Provide design updates for the surface section on the LRT and Queens Quay East streetscape between Bay Street and Parliament Street, and an overview of upcoming design work for the extension of Queens Quay from Parliament Street to Cherry Street
· Discuss the progress update on the design of the underground section of the LRT from Union Loop to the proposed portal location on Queens Quay East
· Present the initial findings on the phasing study on timing for implementation of the Waterfront Transit Network
· Introduce the environmental approvals process for the project, referred to as the Transit Project Assessment Project (TPAP)

Materials for the virtual Community Consultation, including pre-recorded video presentations from the project team, presentation slides, and a discussion guide, which will be available on the City of Toronto’s project website in the first week of February.

The February 17 virtual Community Consultation will provide a brief version of the pre-recorded video presentations and will be followed by a question and comment period for members of the public. Feedback will be additionally sought through an online survey, which will be open from February 17 – March 4, 2021.
For in-depth information on the project, it is recommended that the pre-recorded videos or discussion guide are reviewed in advance of the meeting.

The meeting will take place online through WebEx on:
Date: Wednesday, February 17, 2021
Time: 7 p.m. – 8:30 p.m.
https://lura.webex.com/lura/onstage/g.php?MTID=e82b4b1215facc2e5b6f434531ea324c8