Toronto Police Service Reformation

[AlvinofDiaspar]

IDK that, disarming the police may embolden the bangers and other violent criminals. Toronto is not Minneapolis, Chicago or other US cities, we don’t have a widespread problem with police shooting unarmed people, and when it does happen we have a justifiable uproar about it. What we need is to remove the police from being the primary responder to mental health events, same as they’re not the primary responder to fire or medical health events.

I don't think bangers think twice about whether police is armed or not when they go about their thing.

AoD

 

[Jasmine18]

I don't think bangers think twice about whether police is armed or not when they go about their thing.

AoD

and if a cop responds to an active shooting and he has nothing to respond with to catch or stop the shooting, then what?

Like you have to understand to me and a lot of people, I would feel way less safe if cops are disarmed in a big city like Toronto. You can't just be like "some people dont like cops with guns, end of discussion".

As I said people are bringing in uniquely European and Americanized solutions and not solutions that cater to the policing situation in Toronto.

 

[Admiral Beez]

I don't think bangers think twice about whether police is armed or not when they go about their thing.

I can see you think that from your earlier post.

I know we tend to turn to Europe in our aspirations, but is there any jurisdiction in North America where they handle mental health events and policing better that Toronto could emulate?

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

and if a cop responds to an active shooting and he has nothing to respond with to catch or stop the shooting, then what?
As i said people are bringing in uniquely European and Americanized solutions and not solutions that cater to the policing situation in Toronto.

Then you call for backup - which they do anyways. You think a cop will just barge in single-handedly with a gun blazing in an active shooter situation? That "bringing in uniquely European" solution talk is just an excuse for not trying better or even considering substantive reform.

Like you have to understand to me and a lot of people, I would feel way less safe if cops are disarmed in a big city like Toronto. You can't just be like "some people dont like cops with guns, end of discussion".

Have you considered how others felt about "feeling" safe with respect to the universality of armed cops?

AoD

 

[picard102]

I agree, disarming the police is a non starter for me and a lot of people.

I don’t see why the police are needed at all for these metal distress calls.

Because they've involved weapons. With Regis Korchinski-Paquet, the call mentioned she had a knife, though she was not found with one.

 

[Jasmine18]

Then you call for backup - which they do anyways. You think a cop will just barge in single-handedly with a gun blazing in an active shooter situation? That "bringing in uniquely European" solution talk is just an excuse for not trying better or even considering real reform.



Have you considered how others felt about "feeling" safe with respect to the universality of armed cops?

AoD

Actually, in an active shooting situation, any cop on the scene has a duty to go in and stop the shooting as soon as possible. The police officer at the school shooting at sandy hook got in big trouble for waiting to respond i think.

There are countless examples in the USA where mass shootings were lessened by cops going in without much care for their own safety and there have been cases in Canada as well (Montreal college shooter i think).


As i said this is a divisive issue that won't be settled any time soon and we should focus on achievable police reform instead.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Because they've involved weapons. With Regis Korchinski-Paquet, the call mentioned she had a knife, though she was not found with one.

Yes, I think we need to train family members in how to properly inform emergency services, same as when you call 911 on a physical health call. If you tell 911 that someone is armed, the system launches an armed response. At that moment, you've not called for medical assistance, you've called for state armed intervention.

 

[Jasmine18]

Now if we are talking about police not having access to military level hardware then i agree with that .

like I heard the reason cops wanted such weapons was in response to the infamous North Hollywood shootout but that is an exception.

 

[jje1000]

I don’t see why the police are needed at all for these metal distress calls. If someone is in medical distress, physical or mental, it should be solely an ambulance with a mental health specialist that arrives. Upon arrival, if the ambulatory crew deem they need police, they can call them, same as if there’s a fire and TFD upon arrival find a crime scene.

My concern is that it might take too long if a second call needs to be placed, and people in mental distress do have the ability to hurt themselves or others. Giving them the knowledge that 'punishment' is on the way may compel them to double down or to act.

Better to send them together as one special call and have the police subservient to the mental health specialist.

Yes, I think we need to train family members in how to properly inform emergency services, same as when you call 911 on a physical health call. If you tell 911 that someone is armed, the system launches an armed response. At that moment, you've not called for medical assistance, you've called for state armed intervention.

Agreed that public awareness on the nuances of 911 is necessary- every family should have a pamphlet on their fridge explaining which description fits best.

 

[Admiral Beez]

In the case of Korchinski-Paquet, she clearly jumped off the balcony. Unless police pushed her or told her to jump I don't see how they have a part in this beyond being able to add to witness accounts. How many times do police successfully talk someone off a ledge or bridge railing? I imagine most times they are successful, but sometimes that person jumps.

 

[picard102]

Yes, but the narrative around this has already been built up as being the fault of the police.
Rather than look stupid, protestors will twist themselves into a knot to keep the blame on the police.

 

[lenaitch]

I don’t see why the police are needed at all for these metal distress calls. If someone is in medical distress, physical or mental, it should be solely an ambulance with a mental health specialist that arrives. Upon arrival, if the ambulatory crew deem they need police, they can call them, same as if there’s a fire and TFD upon arrival find a crime scene.
With ‘bangers shooting up the city, I’d like the good guys to be equally armed. Removing the police, or having a health worker lead the intervention for a mental health event should reduce the number of SIU-justified yet preventable police shootings. That said, I would like us to demilitarize the police..... revert to light blue uniforms from black, proper hats instead of ball caps, and light blue and white cars, not the black stealth look.

I would suspect the police would be thrilled to have MH calls taken off their plate, except that in many cases the reality would be that they would end up there anyway, only now later, with more people involved and the situation further deteriorated. I wonder how the paramedics would feel about being turned into first responders to somebody who is acting or threatening violence. Protective equipment? Tactical training? More money? They can only treat someone voluntarily- if the patient refuses medical treatment, they can't force it on them. Having mental health specialists scattered around the city 24/7 would be a great idea but, again, what happens when things go south. The Occupational Health and Safety Act says you can't force then into a situation that isn't inherent to their job spec, and if the job spec says they have to face violence, then you have to train and equip them, and expect the pay to be commensurate.

I honestly don't get the thing about hats and car colours. "Proper" hats, you mean the ones that originated in the military? Shirt colour, at least for rural departments, was shown to have an officer safety component when it was determined that shines like a beacon in the natural environment. Dark blue is not universal, there are still a few services wearing light blue.

It was mentioned by somebody in an earlier post that the police are para-military. While it is true that some trappings have military origins, saying this in the current context suggests little understanding of either the police or the military. Yes, they wear uniforms - so do the folks behind the counter at Tim's. Yes, they use military-originated rank structure, but it doesn't matter if you call a first line supervisor Sergeant or The Great Garloo, they're still a supervisor, and unless you are self-employed, we all have one. A individual police officer has an incredible range of free operatonal decision-making to a level unheard of in the military. If anything, a fire service is much more command oriented. Every truck has a Captain who directs the crew at a scene and, if additional trucks are involved, a District or Platoon Chief is engaged. There's those nasty military ranks again. Everybody seems to like firefighters.

Regarding the lady who exited the balcony, can we perhaps wait for an investigation? The only "evidence" I have seen is family saying she would never do that. What to know how many times I've heard that from the family of a suicide victim? Not pre-judging that this was a suicide, but often things and people are not as they seem. Perhaps body-worn cameras would help, but that's a topic for a whole 'nudder post.

 

[Jasmine18]

also people saying we do not need police

Even the beloved Europeans have police too

 

[Northern Light]

I agree, disarming the police is a non starter for me and a lot of people.

There is medium between universal disarmament and universal armament.

Some police, have guns, not all police.

Access to a gun if needed; but not worn on the body automatically.

***

I had a family friend who worked for Toronto police who was an older man when I was young.

He retired in the '80s.

He was a cop 40+ years, never once drew his sidearm.

Was immensely proud of that.

He was no enthused with universal armament.

He said he could happily have done without it.

He was in uniform during a much higher crime period than today.

 

[Northern Light]

My concern is that it might take too long if a second call needs to be placed, and people in mental distress do have the ability to hurt themselves or others. Giving them the knowledge that 'punishment' is on the way may compel them to double down or to act.

Better to send them together as one special call and have the police subservient to the mental health specialist.

Almost in complete agreement. I think its important though to identify that not every person experiencing a mental health episode is dangerous or requires an armed police response even in a subordinate role.

We need to separate out those 2 types of calls; and in either case a mental health professional should be the lead responder.