GTHA Regional Transit Amalgamation Discussion: Superlinx/Subway Upload

[44 North]

Didn't a Superlinx thread exist last year. And shouldn't Superlinx cover all transit that GO reaches, so basically add on Brantford Transit, Peterborough Transit, Barrie Transit, and Niagara Falls Transit. Were these excluded because it hurt the business case. Just seems bit convenient for it to be Toronto-Waterloo corridor, while at the same time we have a provincial transit agency offering services well outside those boundaries.

For the most part am not in any way sold on this. Just on a basic level the bigger things get the more likely it falls apart. Roman Empire, British Empire, USSR. Toronto itself is already a massive region the size of NYC. Hard enough to finagle things in an area that large. Now multiply that by dozens, then erode away local representation. It's not sustainable.

Then look at Metrolinx. Had 12 years to figure out fare integration and they haven't done anything. Crosstown is well under construction which is fantastic, but aside from that what else is there? Can't give them credit for GO stuff since that was happening for decades prior. UPX was a colossal failure from the ground up that wasn't even given a full year to see how bad. So why would it make sense to expand that oversight over twenty thousand square km.

 

[kEiThZ]

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They seem like the kind of group that would oppose zoned fares and fare by distance schemes.

This is the one issue I have with a lot of transit advocates. They treat transit as a tool for equity. You will never get real middle class support for transit as long as the service is not geared towards serving the middle class. You want to make up for higher fares? Give the poor passes through the welfare system.

 

[MisterF]

lol....comparisons to the Roman Empire? Are you guys for real? There are many transit agencies that are bigger than anything in the GTA could ever have and they function just fine. Why so many people are eager to defend the squabbling fiefdoms that we have to deal with now is beyond me. What people need to realize is that Toronto is the exception, not the norm. Most cities have much more unified systems, including other cities in Canada.

Above post is another view of Metrolinx, as a crosspost from 25-year masterplanning thread

The overall grade of Metrolinx being a PASS/FAIL is a bit simplistic -- one has to consider that Metrolinx is an improvement over the status quo that came immediately before it. What came before Metrolinx was actually an F grade in some ways but Metrolinx raised the stakes -- and ambitious intentions have come to shortfall but we have now seen many benefits. The important thing is -- what will happen over the next 10 years? GTHA is horrendously complicated, and it was a tall ambitious order to try to bring them all under one umbrella. But now it's being done incrementally, in a much slower journey of transit integration -- far more is being done than before Metrolinx even if not remotely nearly enough and also disappointingly little for many.

Doing a true "Superlinx" will potentially require far more operating cost than Metrolinx, and I'm not sure that GTHA is ready to stomach that yet -- this is not something that can be easily done in one generation. Any path forward may be heinously expensive and hard for the Premier to stomach.

Superlinx is a bigger Metrolinx at the and of the day. Are we ready for that?

The real question isn't whether a "superlinx" would cost more than Metrolinx, since the scope would be vastly different. Since the purpose is presumably to merge all the GTA transit systems together into one agency, the question is whether it would cost more than Metrolinx and all the local transit systems combined. Which level of government would pay for it doesn't really matter since the province and municipalities are fundamentally the same. The rest is details.

 

[rbt]

The real question isn't whether a "superlinx" would cost more than Metrolinx, since the scope would be vastly different. Since the purpose is presumably to merge all the GTA transit systems together into one agency, the question is whether it would cost more than Metrolinx and all the local transit systems combined. Which level of government would pay for it doesn't really matter since the province and municipalities are fundamentally the same.

It almost certainly would for the same reason Toronto amalgamation was a money loser. Unions will combine and increase in scope such that the one with the best employee contract would cover all services. The Ford's, with McGuinty, made the TTC union all powerful; this essential service label would now apply to all services and receive the TTC pay scale.

Most agencies run pretty thin on management/accounting/legal which is where most cost savings would be.

Of course, Superlinx can plan routes and provide funding for cross-border services without operating them directly.

 

[gweed123]

My personal preference for a Superlinx structure would be the following:

• Metrolinx Planning: Basically most of what is currently thought of as Metrolinx, minus the GO operations part
• Metrolinx RT: Responsible for all rapid transit operations in the GTHA (GO, TTC Subway, LRTs, BRTs)
• Metrolinx Central: Local transit operations within the City of Toronto (basically the TTC under a new name, minus the subway network)
• Metrolinx East: Local transit operations within Durham Region (re-branded DRT, minus Pulse)
• Metrolinx North: Local transit operations within York Region (re-branded YRT, minus VIVA)
• Metrolinx West: Local transit operations within Peel Region (consolidated MiWay and Brampton Transit, expanded a bit into Caledon)
• Metrolinx Southwest: Local transit operations within Halton Region (consolidated Oakville, Milton, and Burlington Transit)
• Metrolinx South: Local transit operations within Hamilton (HSR, minus the future BLAST network)

The 1st two can be funded entirely from the Province, while the remainder can be funded by a combination of Municipal and Provincial funding. For those agencies that are already at the regional level, it would be largely a re-branding exercise, as the route planning & scheduling would be done by the same groups as now. For Peel and Halton Regions, it would be like when York or Durham amalgamated transit providers.

I think this approach provides the synergy that working under one banner can offer, while at the same time maintaining some form of separation and local autonomy breaks up the 'monolithic, uncaring' perception.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

That's a reasonable structure (though I don't know if you need new names and branding).

It's hard to conceive of how such an agency would be properly funded, is the real thing. It's easy to say "provincial and municipal" but that's very vague. I think you probably need a baseline of funding from the provincial general revenue, obviously + farebox and then it's kind of a mystery. You almost certainly need road pricing and/or other revenue tools that feed directly - and only - into the agency. I think that's fundamental. How municipalities pay in is another matter but there can be some sort of formula for that.

Yeah, the unions can be a problem but that stuff has a way of ironing itself out. I've used this example before but: go stand on the south side of Steeles, at Yonge. Watch the YRT buses go by until a TTC bus comes and allows you to board. Those YRT buses are not allowed to pick up Toronto riders, because of unions. I've got zero against the unions, per se; they're just one more intransigent, change-resisting force (just like TTC itself) that cares more about its own operations than the experience of the customers/riders it serves.

But the real point is that we always act like we're reinventing the wheel here in Toronto. We're not. Everything we do - EVERYTHING - is something someone else already did. We haven't broken new ground since the TTC's Golden Era. Whether it's the Bentway or Raildeck Park or RER or electronic fare cards, everyone else has been doing this stuff forever. There are minds out there great enough to do a best practices survey of other transit authorities and come up with something that works for our context but for all the complaints about local bus routes and fears of Toronto's character being diluted by suburban integration and whatnot, it's really not (red) rocket science.

 

[crs1026]

^The union thing will work itself out, but the point made is very valid. Amalgamation will cause labour rates to converge at the highest level. The clear precedent for that was Metro Toronto amalgamation of 98-99. Study that effort, and you will see how that works. It was a huge management time commitment just to negotiate and arbitrate the wage structures for everyone from library staff to firefighters. Many nin-union workers ended up in unions by virtue of amalgamation. I am not arguing against that as a pro or anti union matter, but to demonstrate that amalgamation of GTA transit will not break even on labour costs, and labour is a.huge % of our overall transit bill. Anyone saying that amalgamation will bring direct savings is ignoring reality. The indirect savings (admin, etc) are probably trivial.
Which is not to say amalgamation is wrongheaded, but the inefficient practices we are objecting to eg redundancy in routes between municipalities do not need amalgamation to solve. It’s like tearing down a row of houses and building a multi-unit condo just because one guy won’t tend his lawn.

- Paul

 

[steveintoronto]

Didn't a Superlinx thread exist last year. And shouldn't Superlinx cover all transit that GO reaches, so basically add on Brantford Transit, Peterborough Transit, Barrie Transit, and Niagara Falls Transit.

Brantford, yes, as it's now part of the expanding GTHA, just as Guelph and K/W are. But the limit is only just inclusive of Brantford.

Had 12 years to figure out fare integration and they haven't done anything.

In all due respect to Metrolinx (and they have a lot to account for) they're up against Ontario's most pressing problem at this time (and that of some of the other provinces): The Founding Formula of Canada. The Metrolinx Act has some powers not yet used, but they can never do what the Municipal Act(s) (Toronto, Sudbury, Hamilton et al Acts) define. I'm not letting Metrolinx off the hook, but we're pretty well screwed when it comes to municipal matters in this province.

lol....comparisons to the Roman Empire? Are you guys for real? There are many transit agencies that are bigger than anything in the GTA could ever have and they function just fine. Why so many people are eager to defend the squabbling fiefdoms that we have to deal with now is beyond me. What people need to realize is that Toronto is the exception, not the norm. Most cities have much more unified systems, including other cities in Canada.

There's so many excellent examples, some nations with state level of gov't akin to provinces, albeit Canada is the loosest confederation in the developed world. And it's causing very real problems. National govt's in many nations participate willingly and avidly to provide transit/transportation systems that excel. Germany immediately comes to mind with their Lander levels not opposing but welcoming federal participation.

And we have the likes of Doug Ford.

Most agencies run pretty thin on management/accounting/legal which is where most cost savings would be.

Agreed, 'threadbare' comes to mind. But the advantage would be a far more seamless journey across a much wider area. The costs would perhaps be higher to do it, but the value rendered per cost would be reflected in efficiency.

It's easy to say "provincial and municipal" but that's very vague.

In so many ways. It might be best to go back to how Ontario's highway system was created from local existing roads. Hwy 2, for instance, was almost completely intact before ever becoming a highway.

you almost certainly need road pricing and/or other revenue tools that feed directly - and only - into the agency. I think that's fundamental. How municipalities pay in is another matter but there can be some sort of formula for that.

There's no way around it, agreed. But then we have Ford et al as a provincial gov't, not that this gov't alone is responsible. It will take the election of a gov't predicated on systemic change (including the creation of a GTHA City-State type region, as is done in Germany and other nations, very successfully, albeit part of that is post WWII reformation) for the needed status regional systems to 'have their day'.

Those YRT buses are not allowed to pick up Toronto riders, because of unions.

Actually nothing to do with unions, everything to do with 'territory' and written agreements.

Everything we do - EVERYTHING - is something someone else already did.

Exactly! And as much as I lament the 'Canadian Constitutional Constraint'...other Cdn cities do this so much better. There is actually a clause(s) in the Muni Act(s) that allow police forces, transit systems, public works, health services, school boards, etc to merge in "adjacent" counties (even if slightly separated, I did research on this for Guelph sharing many competencies with Waterloo Region)(Guelph has a very uneasy relationship with Wellington County)

There are some areas possible for further efficiencies in Ontario, but not for 'Super Regions'. And that's a huge problem.

 

[JasonParis]

I'm sorry?

London is light years ahead of Toronto at this time. So is Paris, German cities, far eastern cities, Vienna, etc, etc. Jeezuz, even some South American cities are far ahead. Mind you, that's not difficult, Toronto is such a miasma of fiefdoms and political interference and gerrymandering.

London wasn't always such a unified system. The Cons of the past hated the GLC, and Balkanized London Transport out of spite. Even with the present Transport for London system, the buses are still private but on contract to run concession routes. Meantime, TfL is buying up the National Rail franchise routes into Greater London. Crossrail is a whole story in itself, but alas, Toronto is two generations back...

London is also a case in everything "looking" amalgamated to the user, but actually isn't in reality.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

I am completely against this until some of the suburban transit agencies raise their standards.

 

[TOareaFan]

I'd consider a Peel transit merger if someone could guarantee that 53 "Kennedy" service levels were more likely to increase to 7 "Kennedy" levels as opposed to it going the other way. ....as an example.

 

[steveintoronto]

London is also a case in everything "looking" amalgamated to the user, but actually isn't in reality.

And therein lies an answer to what Metrolinx (super sized or not) might accomplish. I used the Highway 2 analogy in a post prior. It was almost entirely existent before being strung together as a highway. And there was very little resistance from what I can gather, as it offered a huge advantage to many towns. It was *funded directly from QP*

And perhaps there's the answer for Ford with uploading the subway. That would be a start, but then the Province might state: "We've studied this, and we'll now sponsor various bus and transportation routes across the GTHA that already exist, and will now run through all the jurisdictions as a continuous and improved bus route that we'll directly invest in to upgrade performance in every respect".

That might fit with your observation.

But make no mistake on TfL, even though a *collection* of entities, it performs very well (the Brits are still wanting compared to say, the Swiss or Austrians):

What we do
We are the integrated transport authority responsible for meeting Mayor Sadiq Khan's strategy and commitments on transport in London. We run the day-to-day operation of the Capital's public transport network and manage London's main roads.
No other city is as recognised by its transport system as London. Its red buses, black cabs and Tube trains are known the world over.

Every day more than 31 million separate journey segments are made across our network. We do all we can to keep the city moving, working and growing and to make life in our city better.

We listen to, and act upon, feedback and complaints to constantly improve our services and work with communities, representative groups, businesses and many other stakeholders to shape transport provision in London.

We are guided by the Mayor's Transport Strategy and its target that 80% of all journeys will be made on foot, by cycle or using public transport by 2041.

Our transport network
The services we operate include London Underground, London Buses, Docklands Light Railway, London Overground, TfL Rail, London Trams, London River Services, London Dial-a-Ride, Victoria Coach Station, Santander Cycles and the Emirates Air Line.

We work to make journeys easier through technology and data. We provide modern ways to pay through Oyster and contactless payment cards and provide information in different formats to help people move around London.

Live travel information is provided directly by us and through third party organisations which use the data we make available to power apps and other services.

Looking to the future
Our programmes of transport capital investment is one of the world's largest. It is building the Elizabeth line *, modernising Tube services and stations, transforming the road network and making it safer, especially for more vulnerable road users such as pedestrians and cyclists.

• How we reinvest our income
• How we are funded

[...]

https://tfl.gov.uk/corporate/about-tfl/what-we-do

*(Elizabeth line = Crossrail)

@JasonParis : Can you expand on your comment? This is far from being an absolute 'superlinx', but might be vastly more workable and achievable if copied/adapted for Metrolinx purposes.

Btw: To keep the record straight, my "I'm sorry?" comment was in error to misunderstanding another poster's point. We've since moved on in very fertile discussion.

 

[JasonParis]

My point wasn't very profound. I just think people in Toronto look to London and say "hey, they have one operator for the entire region, why don't we?" They base this on seeing the roundel on everything, but the reality is quite different.

I'm not saying this as pro or anti-Suprlinx, although, I do have huge concerns if it were to be created, largely based on service levels needing to match demand. With Toronto itself having the vast majority of Golden Horseshoe transit trips, it would need to be set-up in such a manner that wouldn't bring the entire region to a lowest common denominator of service based on some arsed notion of "fairness." 905 municipalities will be paying into an organization that will have to maintain much higher service levels in the 416. It's a bit of a political hot potato if you follow me.

 

[44 North]

lol....comparisons to the Roman Empire? Are you guys for real? There are many transit agencies that are bigger than anything in the GTA could ever have and they function just fine. Why so many people are eager to defend the squabbling fiefdoms that we have to deal with now is beyond me. What people need to realize is that Toronto is the exception, not the norm. Most cities have much more unified systems, including other cities in Canada.


The real question isn't whether a "superlinx" would cost more than Metrolinx, since the scope would be vastly different. Since the purpose is presumably to merge all the GTA transit systems together into one agency, the question is whether it would cost more than Metrolinx and all the local transit systems combined. Which level of government would pay for it doesn't really matter since the province and municipalities are fundamentally the same. The rest is details.

But the proposal is not to abolish municipal boundaries, so by default fiefdoms will remain. As will squabbling. That's certainly not going anywhere any time soon. Backdoor partnerships between areas to support one project in exchange for another at the expense of elsewhere, as been happening for decades, all logically remain.

And with the bureaucratic structure the Prov still basically has final say. They provide the funding and policy framework. So say we have a highschool dropout calling the shots at QP, proposing everything be underground in a biased process that makes certain MPPs ridings look good, not much preventing that becoming the objective goal. Or restricting funding to balance their books while also being exclusionary in their dole outs.

Then the other aspect of finding revenue streams with the emphasis on undeveloped land owned by existing local agencies. In English: sell land owned by the City of Toronto to fund something 100 miles away. Not sure how fair that is.

Brantford, yes, as it's now part of the expanding GTHA, just as Guelph and K/W are. But the limit is only just inclusive of Brantford.

Why just Brantford though. If anything of the list I gave Brantford seems the least likely to be included of the four. But since GO serves Peterboro, Barrie, Niagara, and Brantford it does seem odd that their respective local transit systems wouldn't be included. We're to have 15min electric trains to Barrie under current plans, and extend rail to NF. Their exclusion doesn't add up.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

My point wasn't very profound. I just think people in Toronto look to London and say "hey, they have one operator for the entire region, why don't we?" They base this on seeing the roundel on everything, but the reality is quite different.

I'm not saying this as pro or anti-Suprlinx, although, I do have huge concerns if it were to be created, largely based on service levels needing to match demand. With Toronto itself having the vast majority of Golden Horseshow transit trips, it would need to be set-up in such a manner that wouldn't bring the entire region to a lowest common denominator of service based on some arsed notion of "fairness." 905 municipalities will be paying into an organization that will have to maintain much higher service levels in the 416. It's a bit of a political hot potato if you follow me.

Totally. With Superlinx, I foresee 905 communities immediately complaining that they don’t get service as good as Toronto. Then funding will be diverted away from Toronto to support 905 transit. Given that the vast majority of trips are in Toronto, this would have a net negative impact on transit services.