Roads: Traffic Signals

[Kitsune]

How long does it take the city to from the installed stage to set up stage ? Its been over a month it seems since the lights were installed at Park / Rosedale Valley but not set up. Due to GPS, uber & lyft this intersection needs these lights asap as the traffic jams are probably among the longest in the city during rush hour.

 

[Neutrino]

Any update on the adaptive signal projects in Sarborough and on Yonge st?

 

[amnesiajune]

How long does it take the city to from the installed stage to set up stage ? Its been over a month it seems since the lights were installed at Park / Rosedale Valley but not set up. Due to GPS, uber & lyft this intersection needs these lights asap as the traffic jams are probably among the longest in the city during rush hour.

I don't think the traffic lights will make traffic any better. 20,000 cars per day is still gonna be a lot of traffic for a two-lane road. That's as much as a lot of the city's four-lane roads get.

 

[innsertnamehere]

I noticed that the foundations have been poured for the new signals at Richmond and Simcoe as well.

Park and Rosedale Valley would be a great spot for a roundabout if you ask me.

 

[reaperexpress]

I made a video covering the basics of Toronto's Transit Signal Priority system:

Let me know if there are particular topics you think I should cover in parts 2 and 3.

 

[Neutrino]

Any updates on the smart signal pilot on Yonge and Sheppard East?

 

[pman]

How long does it take the city to from the installed stage to set up stage ? Its been over a month it seems since the lights were installed at Park / Rosedale Valley but not set up. Due to GPS, uber & lyft this intersection needs these lights asap as the traffic jams are probably among the longest in the city during rush hour.

A roundabout would be perfect for that intersection.

 

[steveintoronto]

A roundabout would be perfect for that intersection.

It really would be:
https://www.google.ca/maps/place/Sa...860f7a11d88972!8m2!3d43.6695984!4d-79.3690163

The loss of the trees to do it would be unfortunate, but the reduction of noise and pollution, let alone congestion would be worth it. Roundabouts also meter speed, something the locals should find desirous.

 

[TransitBart]

Does anyone know why Toronto is so anti-round-about? Is there an official policy about bringing everyone to a complete stop always where two rights of way intersect?

O'Conner and Woodbine would have been perfect before the recent Elmer-the-Safety-Elephant makeover.

 

[steveintoronto]

Does anyone know why Toronto is so anti-round-about? Is there an official policy about bringing everyone to a complete stop always where two rights of way intersect?

O'Conner and Woodbine would have been perfect before the recent Elmer-the-Safety-Elephant makeover.

It's a very good question. I brushed up a bit on my understanding of roundabouts in Ontario before my last post just prior, and most of the reference is from Waterloo Region. And yet Toronto has had roundabouts for at least a generation (as distinct from 'traffic circles' which have existed here for well over half a century).

The oldest one I'm aware of is on Windermere in Swansea. Just looking at it now, I see that it isn't a 'classic' one as is now being used in Waterloo, but it does something very clever I never realized before seeing it from above:

https://www.google.ca/maps/place/To...23555502ab4c477!8m2!3d43.653226!4d-79.3831843

It's more like an inverse railway roundhouse than a classic roundabout. Note how it services a 'by-pass' for the original Windermere Ave and also St Olave's Rd and a driveway.

I don't have the references up on my taskbar that I did earlier, but IIRC notable in Waterloo's case is the *increase* in accidents (mostly on initiation of the roundabout) but the *severity* of accidents was vastly reduced. Almost all were scrapes and bumps, no T-bones, no head-ons. Pedestrian safety takes on a new impetus however. Europe has long ago accepted the need for pedestrian underpasses at them. Waterloo's impression is very favourable, but unless addressed in the HTA in the last while, there is no provision in the HTA for roundabouts.

I'll dig deeper on those facets later, and Toronto's official stance. I seem to recollect Toronto leaning toward implementing them. There are very good reasons to doing so.

Edit: Just doing some checking now. One source claims "This is a traffic circle, not a roundabout, as it has stop signs at the junction". Just checked on Google map, that is wrong, they are *yield* signs, technically unnecessary, but a sop to motorists to 'mind their road manners'. In other words, legally redundant but good reminders.

I see also:
https://urbantoronto.ca/forum/threads/roads-roundabouts.8212/

Also:

Roundabouts are one of the best ways to combat traffic congestion, so ...
https://nationalpost.com/.../roundabouts-are-one-of-the-best-ways-to-combat-traffic-con...
Jul 21, 2012 - There are 76% fewer injury collisions at roundabouts than at ... and another in the west end, connecting Windermere Avenue, Coe Hill Drive ...
[PDF]STAFF REPORT INFORMATION ONLY Feasibility ... - City of Toronto
www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2008/pw/bgrd/backgroundfile-11862.pdf
Mar 25, 2008 - Feasibility and Benefits of Roundabouts in Toronto. 1. STAFF REPORT .... typeroundabouts. They are located at Windermere Avenue and Coe.

Later edit: Reading up now, a massive proviso comes to mind from my experience of spending time in the UK, and the eroding ability of UK drivers to use them the way previous generations did:

There's a world of difference between single lane roundabouts and dual lane ones! As an avid distance cyclist, in visits and work sojourns in the UK, I used to have the confidence to zip through roundabouts carefully watching for others' signals, and allowing them to see mine. My last sojourn there a decade or so back...there's no friggin' way I'd cycle through a roundabout...*unless*...it was a single lane one. The *choreograph* necessary to make them work is at least half gone from today's Brits. It's the iGeneration, it's all about them, nothing about everything else, and in that is a massive warning for North Am: They have to be simple, and single lane to work. A majority or close to it of drivers don't signal their turns, and for cyclists, it's a rarity (I actually congratulate the ones that do!) let lone look over their shoulders before lane changing.

The UK also has what are termed "double roundabouts" or "twin roundabouts"...lol...but we won't go there. They take tremendous driver confidence to 'do the dance' and not get their toes crushed doing it. The most important....*crucial* facet is signalling intention. Good luck on that on Toronto roads.

Addendum:

DOUBLE ROUNDABOUT

A single roundabout is often challenge enough for many drivers, especially learners. A double roundabout is of course double the challenge.
Double roundabouts come in both forms, normal roundabouts and mini roundabouts. Although the same rules apply to both types, a very different approach needs to be taken. You will certainly be taking roundabouts during a driving test and if double roundabouts exits within the driving test routes, there’s a good chance you will be taking these too.

This tutorial offers advice for both normal and mini double roundabouts along with the rules.
The key to dealing with any double roundabout is to deal with both roundabouts separately. Below is a diagram of a large double roundabout. which exits off onto dual carriageways.
We’re going to be following the red car which is following the correct driving test procedure for turning right at the double roundabout. As with normal roundabouts, the MSPSL (Mirror, Signal, Position, Speed and Look routine must be applied. See the MSPSL driving routine for further information.

https://www.drivingtesttips.biz/double-roundabout.html

[...]
DOUBLE MINI ROUNDABOUTS AND CYCLISTS
Cyclists can often be unpredictable and can often not use arm signals to indicate their change of direction. Always approach mini and double mini runabouts slowly so you can take effective observation. If cyclists are located at the roundabout, use extreme caution and do not try to push past.

https://www.drivingtesttips.biz/double-roundabout.html

These are tips for double roundabouts for a nation of drivers used to regular roundabouts. In the case of Torontonians, this would apply for even the simplest of roundabouts.

Cyclists and pedestrians: Be scared, be very scared....and for God's sake, look and signal. Or preferably, dismount the bike and walk (or run for your life) across as a pedestrian.

 

[thettctransitfanatic]

Does anyone know why Toronto is so anti-round-about? Is there an official policy about bringing everyone to a complete stop always where two rights of way intersect?

O'Conner and Woodbine would have been perfect before the recent Elmer-the-Safety-Elephant makeover.

Toronto is anti-roundabout because they are worried, I assume, that people will either not know how to drive around one properly, or hate the idea.

 

[pman]

Toronto is anti-roundabout because they are worried, I assume, that people will either not know how to drive around one properly, or hate the idea.

I get the first point, but I don’t understand how anyone would prefer Toronto’s stop sign at every intersection approach over the judicious use of roundabouts. Assuming they’ve ever actually driven in places that have them, which I guess is why yet another good dea in use in many other countries would be inconceivable here. I’m so disappointed by our pig-headed refusal to learn from other cities.

 

[Northern Light]

I get the first point, but I don’t understand how anyone would prefer Toronto’s stop sign at every intersection approach over the judicious use of roundabouts. Assuming they’ve ever actually driven in places that have them, which I guess is why yet another good dea in use in many other countries would be inconceivable here. I’m so disappointed by our pig-headed refusal to learn from other cities.

Something not to be missed is that retrofitting them into most intersections would mean land acquisition, likely by expropriation.

Neither cheap, nor quick in this day and age.

Based on what I'm seeing online, the typical regional road roundabouts in Waterloo are 850m2, that's a diameter in the vicinity of 30M.

While the one on Windemere in Toronto is 21M across, and almost 4000sq ft.

That's a lot of land area.

The smaller one is the size of a fairly typical inner suburban lot, with a presumed land value close near 1M

The large one, needless to say, more than twice that.

Cost is a very tangible obstacle.

****

There are too many stop signs in Toronto, and too many traffic lights in many areas as well.

There are alternatives other than roundabouts.

Road diet the street, alternative paving treatments, put some sway into the street (even just using the existing ROW)...all of these slow traffic.

At intersections alternative instruction can be used including yield, flashing yellow etc.

For larger streets the issue is largely about safe crossings for pedestrians, and that is best addressed by shorter crossing distances, and predictable traffic flows with gaps.

Where the issue is one of managing turning traffic, things are more problematic. I'd love to see driver education that reminds people a left is three rights.....

But we also have the option of blocking lefts in more cases where they pose a danger for relatively little gain (mid-street island/barrier that blocks the turning movement.

We're a bit too stuck in the thought in the binary process of light/no light, stop sign/no stop sign rather than in shaping traffic flow to address the issue.

 

[Monarch Butterfly]

All way stop signs also waste fuel, if we follow the law as stated exactly. They also wear out brakes more, increasing the cost of maintenance.

Stop the stopping: a Big Idea to get rid of unwarranted stop signs

From link.

Start and stop. Start and stop. Start and stop.

It’s not the most effective way to read, and for transportation enthusiast Alan Fenton it’s not the most effective way to drive, either.

Stop signs, like periods, shouldn’t be abused, and Fenton says Toronto has long ignored proper street grammar to the detriment of traffic, safety and the environment.

“The total annual energy waste . . . is in excess of 100 million litres. This means somewhere around three times the fuel spilled from the Exxon Valdez tanker is being burned away at unnecessary stop signs in greater Toronto every year,” Fenton wrote in an article in Ontario Traffic.

That was 1992. Fenton had spent months calculating energy waste, interviewing Toronto residents and tracking down politicians and bureaucrats.

Fast-forward more than 20 years, and Fenton says things have only gotten worse. Despite increased environmental awareness and increased population and traffic, not to mention amalgamation in 1998, unwarranted stop signs continue to go up.

Fenton’s crosshairs are focused primarily on all-way stops, like the one recently approved for Gihon Spring Dr. and Shockley Dr./Franca Cres. in Etobicoke.

Etobicoke York Community Council voted for the traffic control device at its June 17 meeting, despite Transportation Services saying the measure is unwarranted.

“We wish to emphasize that stop controls define right-of-way,” Steven Kodama, Etobicoke York’s transportation services director, wrote in a staff report.

“Empirical evidence shows that all-way stop controls, especially when installed at low-volume locations such as this, have little significant impact on vehicle operating speeds or traffic volume on either side of the control, encourage non-compliance, waste fuel and increase vehicle noise and emissions . . . we do not recommend installing an all-way stop control at this intersection.”

In his Ontario Traffic article, Fenton alleged that about 80 per cent of stop signs erected between 1987 and 1992 were unnecessary and done for political expediency, as opposed to evidence.

“I can think of no other cases where this type of systematic abuse of civic administration, having such serious implications for both public heath and safety, would ever be allowed to continue for so long,” he concluded.

Transportation Services director Jacqueline White said she doesn’t have numbers on how many unwarranted stop signs are installed, but ultimately the decision lies with the city’s four community councils.

“Often (a) community council thinks that the stop sign should go in, whether (it’s) warranted or not, so there are quite a few of those,” she said. “Often they’re put in because local residents are asking for them to control speed, even though they’re not effective at that.”

Councillor Vincent Crisanti was behind the motion for the all-way stop. He did not respond to a request for comment.

Toronto adopted new guidelines for all-way stops in 2002, noting mounting evidence against their effectiveness.

The report behind the new guidelines found that unwarranted all-way stops may actually make intersections less safe, as pedestrians assume vehicles will stop, while drivers get used to ignoring them.

Elsewhere in Ontario, other municipalities are taking action against all-way stops.

Windsor determined in 2005 that at least 135 of its 200 all-way stops were unwarranted, and even banned new all-way stops on transit routes.

The discussion paper that sparked the ban cited a 1991 Toronto study, which estimated that removing 480 unwarranted stop signs would save nine million litres of gasoline and eliminate 21,000 tonnes of air pollutants. If Toronto had followed through on that study, emissions would have been reduced by about 5.5 per cent by 2005.

But White said she couldn’t think, off-hand, of any all-way stops in Toronto that have been removed, and the department does not have the resources to go back and measure whether they’re having a positive or negative effect.

Fenton said he understands why residents petition for all-way stops — he wants streets to be safer as well. But by agreeing to those demands, Fenton said, politicians are allowed to pay lip service to the idea of safety without actually making a difference.

Then there is snow and ice at stop signs... on hills.

 

[thettctransitfanatic]

All way stop signs also waste fuel, if we follow the law as stated exactly. They also wear out brakes more, increasing the cost of maintenance.

Stop the stopping: a Big Idea to get rid of unwarranted stop signs

From link.







Then there is snow and ice at stop signs... on hills.

Well, really, what I think should be happening is put stop signs in places where it is necessary only.