2018 Ontario Provincial Election Discussion

[BurlOak]

A minority government by necessity has to moderate itself. This is the best possible outcome in our FPTP system.

Does British Columbia have a "moderate" government right now? A minority is only moderate if most of the constituents are moderate.

If voters actually think about this - then the NDP and Liberals will have even less of a chance of getting close to power.

 

[steveintoronto]

Does British Columbia have a "moderate" government right now. A minority is only moderate if most of the constituents are moderate.

lol...I was just reading up on Christy Clark. I'm one of those randy males that finds her incredibly attractive, and don't know why...I think she reminds me of an old lover.

Whatever, the BC Libs never were centrist, and they were mired in scandal and dubious decisions. The closest that Harper could ever get to a Lib was the BC Liberals. They were default Cons with the demise of SoCred.

Let's flip your question over, just to play with it until it begs "uncle". Are the Alberta Dippers centrist/moderate?

Addendum: Just reading this on the Christy Cookies:

B.C. Liberals leave checkered legacy following 16 years of power
From LNG to job growth to a long battle with teachers, the Liberal legacy is complex

Richard Zussman · CBC News · Posted: Jun 30, 2017 4:22 PM PT | Last Updated: June 30, 2017
[...]
The 2017 election provided a split legislature that has ended Clark's run as premier.

On her way out came a week of promises, including a complete overhaul of the party's priorities and a shift for the Liberal brand with a left-leaning throne speech.

That shift may change the Liberal legacy, and down the road, split the free-enterprise coalition that has defined 16 years of Liberal success.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/briti...-legacy-following-16-years-of-power-1.4185893

Resonance....

 

[SunriseChampion]

Does British Columbia have a "moderate" government right now? A minority is only moderate if most of the constituents are moderate.

Yeah, I'd say the British Columbia government is fairly moderate. What are you pointing at to imply otherwise? The opposition to Kinder Morgan, I'm assuming.
The government of British Columbia is only seeking judicial review of its rights in terms of interprovincial infrastructure. Even then, the Kinder Morgan pipeline expansion is only one rather contentious contemporaneous issue in BC. What else has the government there done or proposed to do that you would qualify as immoderate?

Also, if a majority of the populace is immoderate then a majority immoderate government would at least be a reflection of the majority's values as opposed to being a false "majority" that is immoderate and imposes its will on the majority of the populace who did not support it.

I should also like to add that the current government in British Columbia does in fact have to moderate itself or face the prospect of losing minority partner Green Party support. They have to work together to get anything done in a sort of concensus-seeking way which is how government should work everywhere and all the time.
If you want government by "majority" imposition, I suggest looking to such luminary democracies such as China ("People's" Republic of) and Russia to see what an extreme example of that looks like.

 

[animatronic]

As I said Ford is taping into an illogical rage that exists out there.

Lordy, I hope there are tapes...

 

[SunriseChampion]

...(and possibly a single or a few Greens and/or independents)...

Yo, what?! Christmas in June?! Go on then.

 

[steveintoronto]

Yo, what?! Christmas in June?! Go on then.

You know, Schreiner is getting noticed....he's acquitting himself very well, and last election, they came in second in a number of ridings, got some 8% of the popular vote IIRC.

Consider the number of persons absolutely estranged from Wynne (not that they voted for her in the first place, but couldn't vote for the ConMonsters)(and again, I have to make it clear, I'm from a Conservative background, but old school) but polls are 'catching' their 'voting for Ford'. They're not, they're ranting. Come the time to pull the trigger, they're not going to commit moral suicide. They're going to be looking for viable, sensible, and *articulate* options. And Shreiner's certainly one. And Horwath has to promote the Dippers as being so also.

How far could I see this going? An official coalition NDP/Lib with Schreiner and a few others unofficially being members, at least acting 'on contract'.

The common enemy is Ford. God help us all if the Bull (shitter) gets loose in the China Shop.

Addendum: Nothing states the case like this, albeit you'll have to think about it a bit:
Wynne calls for the Greens to be allowed into Ontario leaders' debates

And the pic from the article says it even better:

That's the Coalition right there, official or otherwise.

And it's a pretty damn good choice considering the alternative.

And how ironic, Mr "Some of my best friends are Black. I used buy and sell hash with them...." isn't in it.

 

[BurlOak]

lol...I was just reading up on Christy Clark. I'm one of those randy males that finds her incredibly attractive, and don't know why...I think she reminds me of an old lover.

Whatever, the BC Libs never were centrist, and they were mired in scandal and dubious decisions. The closest that Harper could ever get to a Lib was the BC Liberals. They were default Cons with the demise of SoCred.

Let's flip your question over, just to play with it until it begs "uncle". Are the Alberta Dippers centrist/moderate?

Addendum: Just reading this on the Christy Cookies:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/briti...-legacy-following-16-years-of-power-1.4185893

Resonance....

Oil is the lifeblood of Alberta. Any Alberta government has to support pipelines. Take that issue off the table and with government spending, size of government, taxation - they are well to the left..

 

[steveintoronto]

Oil is the lifeblood of Alberta. Any Alberta government has to support pipelines. Take that issue off the table and with government spending, size of government, taxation - they are well to the left..

LOL! And you have to go back to Lougheed to find an Alberta Con that was actually a genuine Conservative. Lougheed warned the province, and they were too busy drinking the Oily KoolAid and wildly spending the Heritage to listen.

But at least Klein has Klass compared to the Ford Flat Truck. (Well...hmmm...at least he could form complete sentences when he wasn't drunk)

 

[Admiral Beez]

We wish we could be like Germany: manufacturing with high costs isn't a problem and their current account surplus is proof of that.

Because the PIIGS and other slacker states devalue the Euro, keeping Germany’s exports competively priced relative to the true value of a sole-German currency, whilst the Euro free market gives Germany tariff-free access to the continent.

http://cer.eu/in-the-press/germanys-euro-advantage

In short, Germany has been free-riding on demand generated elsewhere in the eurozone. This is not healthy “system competition” between members of the currency union, but a “competitive devaluation” in all but name.

 

[MetroMan]

You know, Schreiner is getting noticed....he's acquitting himself very well, and last election, they came in second in a number of ridings, got some 8% of the popular vote IIRC.

Consider the number of persons absolutely estranged from Wynne (not that they voted for her in the first place, but couldn't vote for the ConMonsters)(and again, I have to make it clear, I'm from a Conservative background, but old school) but polls are 'catching' their 'voting for Ford'. They're not, they're ranting. Come the time to pull the trigger, they're not going to commit moral suicide. They're going to be looking for viable, sensible, and *articulate* options. And Shreiner's certainly one. And Horwath has to promote the Dippers as being so also.

How far could I see this going? An official coalition NDP/Lib with Schreiner and a few others unofficially being members, at least acting 'on contract'.

The common enemy is Ford. God help us all if the Bull (shitter) gets loose in the China Shop.

Addendum: Nothing states the case like this, albeit you'll have to think about it a bit:
Wynne calls for the Greens to be allowed into Ontario leaders' debates

And the pic from the article says it even better:

That's the Coalition right there, official or otherwise.

And it's a pretty damn good choice considering the alternative.

And how ironic, Mr "Some of my best friends are Black. I used buy and sell hash with them...." isn't in it.

I'd be satisfied with this. Whoever comes ahead, becomes Premier, second place holds a new position of "Deputy Premier" and Shreiner is given a high ranking cabinet position and the three of them govern together in the centre/left.

But who are we kidding? The Liberals see Doug Ford as a virus in the Conservative party like Trump is to the GOP. A couple of years of Doug Ford and Ontario will be begging for the Liberals to come back, easily holding on for another 3 terms while the Conservatives party fights amongst themselves and re-emerges as something else a decade or more from now.

I'm a cynic and have serious doubts that the Liberals would consider a coalition with the NDP.

 

[steveintoronto]

Because the PIIGS and other slacker states devalue the Euro, keeping Germany’s exports competively priced relative to the true value of a sole-German currency, whilst the Euro free market gives Germany tariff-free access to the continent.

http://cer.eu/in-the-press/germanys-euro-advantage

In short, Germany has been free-riding on demand generated elsewhere in the eurozone. This is not healthy “system competition” between members of the currency union, but a “competitive devaluation” in all but name.

That article is from 2010. Same author, who's changed his stripes, and now in the UK Guardian:

Brexiters are being naive over US trade. Bombardier is a taste of things to come

Outside the EU’s protective umbrella, Brexit Britain would be at the mercy of strong-arm US trade tactics, warns Simon Tilford
Brexiters are being naive over US trade. Bombardier is a taste of things to come

I'd be satisfied with this. Whoever comes ahead, becomes Premier, second place holds a new position of "Deputy Premier" and Shreiner is given a high ranking cabinet position and the three of them govern together in the centre/left.

But who are we kidding? The Liberals see Doug Ford as a virus in the Conservative party like Trump is to the GOP. A couple of years of Doug Ford and Ontario will be begging for the Liberals to come back, easily holding on for another 3 terms while the Conservatives party fights amongst themselves and re-emerges as something else a decade or more from now.

I'm a cynic and have serious doubts that the Liberals would consider a coalition with the NDP.

All valid points of discussion, but consider the last sentence:
"I'm a cynic and have serious doubts that the Liberals would consider a coalition with the NDP".

Normally I'd agree, but this election isn't normal. The Libs, and the others, will have no choice, faced with the spectre of a Ford with a blown transmission. The gearbox is spinning, but the rear-end ain't movin'. I suspect he's blown his differential. And lost his bearings...

I was thinking of your point when posting that pic from TorStar...and realized that the Libs/Dippers/Greens are better behaved in debates, and far better informed and realistic (for all their shortcomings) that the Cons were in their leadership debates! The only friends Ford has are those bought with Daddy's money. He's loathed, not one caucus member supported him. And no wonder.

Once Ontarians realize that a vote for the 'Coalition' is a vote of protest, but not suicidal, they will start feeling better about things, and not base their reflexes on hate and fear.

The problem is going to be the distinct possibility of splitting votes. Here's the tough part for a pre-arranged coalition: The three parties running a 'coalition' candidate in each riding. Perhaps overall votes last election in each riding might be the best guide on that?

 

[SunriseChampion]

LOL! And you have to go back to Lougheed to find an Alberta Con that was actually a genuine Conservative. Lougheed warned the province, and they were too busy drinking the Oily KoolAid and wildly spending the Heritage to listen.

Prentice seemed alright....at least as an individual.

 

[SunriseChampion]

Because the PIIGS and other slacker states devalue the Euro, keeping Germany’s exports competively priced relative to the true value of a sole-German currency, whilst the Euro free market gives Germany tariff-free access to the continent.

http://cer.eu/in-the-press/germanys-euro-advantage

In short, Germany has been free-riding on demand generated elsewhere in the eurozone. This is not healthy “system competition” between members of the currency union, but a “competitive devaluation” in all but name.

This is true. Cheers for pointing it out.

 

[steveintoronto]

This is true. Cheers for pointing it out.

Except it isn't. Think about it. The two aspects of the argument completely contradict each other.

The basis of the argument is that the euro is of a lower value than the Deutsche Mark would be if it were still being used. Not the string to discuss this, but if using the argument as a reference, then the same could be used for Cdn oil prices, Ontario exports, etc, etc. It's a false argument being used out of context. The US can use the same argument for being either pro or anti-Nafta, all depending on how the construct of the context is presented. The UK has an independent Bank and their own currency anyway, as do other EU nations. This compares to Canada/Mexico/US, but somehow, biased commentators overlook the complexity of that aspect, and how national factors that express as GDP efficiency and other costs, inflation rates and even costs of dealing with climate all have to be considered.

But alas...

 

[syn]

I've been waffling over whether to butt in to this particular sub-thread.

I'm still iffy. LOL

However, I do feel the need to say, in fairness, that @MTown made quite clear his disdain for the candidate in question.

His query, I think ( though I should leave him to speak for himself ) was whether her off-colour, odd-ball, even stupefying remarks, as quoted in the article in question merited the degree of offense and alarmism indicated.

Its possible to be dismissive of someone as an intellectual light weight who has little if anything to contribute in a positive way without resorting to demonization.

I happen to think some of her views merit a very strong response, but those quoted in the article were mostly of the less obnoxious and more broadly ignorant variety.

Now don't get me started on her (past?) views on Conversion Therapy.........but that's a whole different............

Which is speaks to the point I'm making here. Reading her comments in a vacuum and/or assuming they're innocent jokes that have nothing to do with her actual views is naive, IMO.

Her blog is largely focused on political issues important to her, and she's running for political office. Is every comment someone makes a sign that they have some sort of bigotry towards a specific group? Of course not. But in Allen's case, she has a history of these comments and bigoted remarks against specific minority groups in our society.