TTC: Flexity Streetcars Testing & Delivery (Bombardier)

[jordanmkasla2009]

The Union for Bombardier workers in Thunder Bay says a total of 61 cars have left the plant on or before New Year's Eve and that had they not experienced parts shortages they would have met the revised revised revised target of 63 or more. https://www.tbnewswatch.com/local-n...mes-parts-shortage-for-missed-deadline-802427

 

[nfitz]

To clarify, we should follow the after the fact example of Metrolinx on the Eglinton Crosstown and have dual suppliers, so the bid is never winner takes all.

The current Metrolinx arrangement is a financial disaster.

Instead of getting 182 vehicles for $770 million we are now paying $920 million to only get 137 vehicles.

The 76 Bombardier vehicles now cost $5.2 million each instead of $4.2 million. And the 61 Alstom vehicles are $8.7 million each.

Though the Alstom vehicles are about 48-metres long, instead of 30 metres. I'm lazy, so say they are 50% bigger.

Equivalent of $5.4 million for a 30-metre unit. So the 61 vehicles are equivalent to about 98 30-metre long.

So one could say it's now 174 equivalent vehicles for $920 million. So we just tossed $180 million out the window to teach Bombardier a lesson.

It will be funny if all 76 Eglinton vehicles are delivered and we are waiting for the 17 vehicles for Finch West.

 

[cplchanb]

The Union for Bombardier workers in Thunder Bay says a total of 61 cars have left the plant on or before New Year's Eve and that had they not experienced parts shortages they would have met the revised revised revised target of 63 or more. https://www.tbnewswatch.com/local-n...mes-parts-shortage-for-missed-deadline-802427

Well....HAD they not had parts shortages due to shotty workmanship and management we would be closer to 100 of not more by now. Always the what ifs for such a poorly managed project

 

[Admiral Beez]

The current Metrolinx arrangement is a financial disaster.

2008 economic crash was a financial disaster. A public infrastructure project going late and over budget is disappointing, but hardly a disaster.

So we just tossed $180 million out the window to teach Bombardier a lesson.

You have it backwards, Bombardier is not the student, we are. We've wasted $180 million to teach ourselves not to always go with the lowest bidder, nor to put all our eggs with Bombardier.

I'm totally fine with paying higher, yet competitive rates for vehicles that both function properly and arrive on time. Given Bombardier's failure to gain marketshare in North America's LRT resurgence, I must assume Siemens' and Alstrom's vast array of customers feel the same.

 

[Allandale25]

The Union for Bombardier workers in Thunder Bay says a total of 61 cars have left the plant on or before New Year's Eve and that had they not experienced parts shortages they would have met the revised revised revised target of 63 or more. https://www.tbnewswatch.com/local-n...mes-parts-shortage-for-missed-deadline-802427

Here's the video from the local newscast in Thunder Bay last night that complements the story. There are shots inside the BBD plant.
- mentions the 65 target that was then lowered to 63;
- 59 were actually delivered;
- some parts are coming from Romania and Europe, in addition to Mexico; and
- the plant aims to produce one streetcar "every three days".

 

[smallspy]

Whether the CLRVs have such equipment I don’t know.

They do, as do the As, subways, and buses.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[TOareaFan]

Here's the video from the local newscast in Thunder Bay last night that complements the story. There are shots inside the BBD plant.
- mentions the 65 target that was then lowered to 63;
- 59 were actually delivered;
- some parts are coming from Romania and Europe, in addition to Mexico; and
- the plant aims to produce one streetcar "every three days".

amazingly does not mention that the 65 target was only established on October 21 (ie. somehow the 70 target we entered the year with is just forgotten) and does not mention (I guess because it is embarrassing) that the final lowering to 63 only took place on December 21....so with 10 days left in the year they established a target of 63....and missed it by 4!

 

[DSC]

The Union for Bombardier workers in Thunder Bay says a total of 61 cars have left the plant on or before New Year's Eve and that had they not experienced parts shortages they would have met the revised revised revised target of 63 or more. https://www.tbnewswatch.com/local-n...mes-parts-shortage-for-missed-deadline-802427

It's not the workers' fault that parts do not arrive - it's the fault of BBM management and their ability to manage their supply chain. This has gone on for years and still seems broken.

I am afraid that the end result of management incompetence is that the workers in TB will see less and less work coming their way as TTC, Metrolinx etc move orders to new suppliers. Sooner or later the TB plant will close as it will be 'uneconomic'.

 

[dowlingm]

Toronto Rockets were sole-sourced from Bombardier. The LRVs were done through an open tender with Siemens as the only other bid.

The only other compliant bid. Let's not forget Trampower

In any event, a significant factor was the decision to slam the uptown and downtown cars into a single tender when either would have been massive by light rail standards and their commonalities were limited (different track gauge, different widths, one single side the other double, 600V vs 750V, one needed ATO capability but the other didn't etc. etc.) Toronto could have had diversity of supplier already and blew the opportunity. While I was always suspicious of how McGuinty's Ottawa base was allowed to escape Bombardier when other LRT projects in Ontario seemed doomed to Bombardier vehicles, this has turned into a blessing since Finch West will now get fully debugged vehicles from an alternate source.

It's not the workers' fault that parts do not arrive - it's the fault of BBM management and their ability to manage their supply chain. This has gone on for years and still seems broken.

I am afraid that the end result of management incompetence is that the workers in TB will see less and less work coming their way as TTC, Metrolinx etc move orders to new suppliers. Sooner or later the TB plant will close as it will be 'uneconomic'.

No, it's not the workers fault where it pertains to supply chain issues. That said, it would be interesting to know what representations they made to their management when down in Toronto the politicians and managers were telling the electorate (especially prior to 2017) what Bombardier were promising, when it must have been obvious to anyone working in TB that they were never going to meet those targets.

 

[W. K. Lis]

The post-war PCC streetcars (classes A6-A8, numbers 4300-4399, 4400-4499, and 4500-4549) were all-electric streetcars. See link. The brakes and doors operated by electricity and not air (pneumatic). With the CLRV's, they went back to pneumatic, and the current problems with the cold.

 

[jordanmkasla2009]

No, it's not the workers fault where it pertains to supply chain issues. That said, it would be interesting to know what representations they made to their management when down in Toronto the politicians and managers were telling the electorate (especially prior to 2017) what Bombardier were promising, when it must have been obvious to anyone working in TB that they were never going to meet those targets.

Bombardier management likely had every expectation that they would have met the targets for TTC streetcar delivery had their suppliers met their contracted parts delivery schedule. It became more apparent to Bombardier's management the closer to the end of the year we got that that their suppliers wouldn't be able to supply enough parts for 65 vehicles so they revised to 63 and only missed that target because there was only enough parts to get 59 vehicles delivered by Dec 31 and 61 vehicles out the door.

 

[steveintoronto]

The post-war PCC streetcars (classes A6-A8, numbers 4300-4399, 4400-4499, and 4500-4549) were all-electric streetcars. See link. The brakes and doors operated by electricity and not air (pneumatic). With the CLRV's, they went back to pneumatic, and the current problems with the cold.

As ludicrous as it may seem, and hindsight is far easier than foresight, had it been known how problematic and wanting many aspects of the A/CLRVs were, a refurbished and re-engineered fleet of PCCs could well still be running. Motor control and relay circuits would have had to be updated, as well as lighting, but the trucks, motors and bodies, complete with those wonderful plush green vinyl coated bench seats would still be acceptable today for many of us. Not to mention trackwork would last longer. What would have doomed them today though is the same as the ALRVs: access. (Albeit the PCCs would still be easier to enter and leave, save for wheelchairs)

 

[nfitz]

2008 economic crash was a financial disaster. A public infrastructure project going late and over budget is disappointing, but hardly a disaster.

Ah, I was using the St. Clair scale here.

Point taken. Behind schedule - but not really given that Eglinton still doesn't actually have anywhere to deliver the vehicles too. And really - we have confidence that Bombardier can get 76 cars out for September 2021 service on Eglinton - but we don't think they can do 23 more for Finch West for 2022 ... or later given they still haven't had financial close on that one.

You have it backwards, Bombardier is not the student, we are. We've wasted $180 million to teach ourselves not to always go with the lowest bidder, nor to put all our eggs with Bombardier.

Still one in hand, is worth 2 in the bush. (not to mention the one in hand costs one each, and the ones in the bush cost two each).

Alstom is going to have plenty of opportunity to miss their 2022 target. And if it was really so dire, why is Bombardier doing the earlier deliveries, not the later ones? It's not like Alstom hasn't massively missed targets in other cities before.

 

[dowlingm]

Bombardier management likely had every expectation that they would have met the targets for TTC streetcar delivery had their suppliers met their contracted parts delivery schedule. It became more apparent to Bombardier's management the closer to the end of the year we got that that their suppliers wouldn't be able to supply enough parts for 65 vehicles so they revised to 63 and only missed that target because there was only enough parts to get 59 vehicles delivered by Dec 31 and 61 vehicles out the door.

If you remember, earlier this year Byford told us we might even see Bombardier deliver ahead of schedule!

 

[TOareaFan]

Bombardier management likely had every expectation that they would have met the targets for TTC streetcar delivery had their suppliers met their contracted parts delivery schedule. It became more apparent to Bombardier's management the closer to the end of the year we got that that their suppliers wouldn't be able to supply enough parts for 65 vehicles so they revised to 63 and only missed that target because there was only enough parts to get 59 vehicles delivered by Dec 31 and 61 vehicles out the door.

If i was, either, their bosses or customers....I would be asking why and how they got the last projection so abysmally wrong.....on December 21 they thought they were going to have a enough parts and time to deliver 63 cars by December 31....yet it ended up being 59.....10 days from the end of year they still did not have enough of a handle on their business to know how many vehicles they could deliver to Toronto by year end...and it is not like they missed by a little....they were off by 4.