Debate on the merits of the Scarborough Subway Extension

[BurlOak]

Then it's irrelevant.

Let's look at reports.

Report 1: SRT conversion > transfer LRT > B-D extension.
Report 2: SRT/ECLRT > transfer LRT.

From this we can conclude that:

1. B-D extension is the worst.
2. transfer LRT is the 2nd worst.
3. Almost any other option is likely better than either the B-D extension or the transfer LRT.
4. Likely the best (among these groups) is SRT conversion and connection with Eglinton.

 

[BurlOak]

Personally, I view the Scarbourough $3 billion "single station" as an unfortunate deal with the devil.

The SSE deal-with-the-devil exists to save DRL, ECLRT, FWLRT, and SELRT. Without SSE, the DRL wouldn't even be this far along.

Fewer riders will benefit than under an ideal plan (intelligently designed for the whole GTHA), but politically, SSE's existence (and few riders) will immensely increase transit ridership elsewhere simply by sheer protection of DRL's existence at all. Very ironic, that by Scarborough voters deciding to vote to hurt their transit ridership, they agreed not to block the increase of transit ridership elsewhere. (by not blocking the DRL)

Thus, that's why it's a "deal-with-the-devil"

Note: DRL is actually a "Downtown Temporary Relief Line". Induced demand typically gradually happens to downtown subway expansion in most world cities, making transit even more popular. While I use "induced demand" more for freeways, it also happens to subways -- and it's better for induced demand to happen to subways since Toronto's Yonge Line handles more people than an 8-lane-wide freeway. Shanghai/Beijing's equivalents of DRL quickly got overloaded. Amazing for cities that had no subway systems when our Line 1 opened. See here for more explanation about subway induced demand.

So you see, now that SSE exists to mollify politicians, means more ridership for whole of GTHA, even if fewer people benefit in the Scarborough area.

I can economically understand improving/extending an already-built SSE (to make it less deal-with-the-devil) but getting a $3+ billion stop built now is a political move that doesn't help many transit riders quicker and sooner in this area.

A more optimized transit plan should have happened, but at least, DRL is now finally going ahead (plans are being made, various studies are under way, it's now partially funded, and now it finally "feels real, feels like it'll finally happen within my life" if it keeps up). If SSE politically made DRL possible, then I can live with the SSE (while holding my nose) because it'll increase transit ridership elsewhere. Simply because DRL now exists as a real plan, now uninterfered by Scarborough having been given candy.

If built, it will probably be many decades before SSE finally "pays for itself economically" with infill stations & connecting to a fully-densified Sheppard Subway line into the big sideways U. Maybe not till the end of this century. Then, it might finally redeem itself cost-wise as a super-busy line. But right now, it is a "Big Owe" league of a deal that's being tolerated by other GTHA politicians in order to protect all the other transit projects elsewhere in GTHA.

Voters who used not to stand for this (and thus, delaying things like Transit City or cancelling projects) -- are now faced with the choice of denying Scarborough (and delaying your favourite local transit project) or letting Scarborough keep its candy (and getting your transit project). Increasingly, more people voted towards the tolerating of a certain amount of candy.

That is some of what happened in 2014 -- but will it happen for 2018? That is the question. Choices for protecting expansion of transit projects has always been a domino-effect minefield in GTHA politics.

20-years of exploding mines (everything between the cancellation of the Eglinton subway in year 1995 through the cancellation of Transit City in 2013) has made many politicians, government agencies, and voters alike want to tolerate SSE to protect the rest of the GTHA transit projects (including DRL and GO RER, and its political branding variants such as SmartTrack which is simply branding of an enhanced GO RER route).

The deal with the devil is that we will do SSE to defeat Ford. First the combined SRT/ECLRT was overturned to defeat Ford, and then the SSE was brought in to prevent Ford from regaining power.

We could have easily had Council say that they will give Ford a grade-separated Eglinton, as long as DRL is next (and not Sheppard or Finch). For Ford, this would have meant no on-street LRT and he would have happily obliged as that was his only criteria. But it wasn't about Eglinton or DRL or transit - it was about defeating Ford (and ironically, Ford defeated himself, but the City and Province had already gone down this road and didn't know how to turn back).

 

[mdrejhon]

The deal with the devil is that we will do SSE to defeat Ford. First the combined SRT/ECLRT was overturned to defeat Ford, and then the SSE was brought in to prevent Ford from regaining power.

We could have easily had Council say that they will give Ford a grade-separated Eglinton, as long as DRL is next (and not Sheppard or Finch). For Ford, this would have meant no on-street LRT and he would have happily obliged as that was his only criteria. But it wasn't about Eglinton or DRL or transit - it was about defeating Ford (and ironically, Ford defeated himself, but the City and Province had already gone down this road and didn't know how to turn back).

It all definitely plays into it all, but Ford is only the straw that finally broke the camel's back.

After 20 years of transit cancellation frustrations. The dark days of GO cutbacks, Eglinton subway fill-in, the Sheppard shortening (and its resulting reduced usefulness), and many other factors.

These transit-cancellation horror stories were fresh in the memories of the people who finally threw up their arms at Rob Ford and concoted the SSE.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

We could have easily had Council say that they will give Ford a grade-separated Eglinton, as long as DRL is next (and not Sheppard or Finch). For Ford, this would have meant no on-street LRT and he would have happily obliged as that was his only criteria.

Canceling Sheppard and especially Finch West is an unacceptable tradeoff. This isn’t about Ford. I’d be equally furious at Tory if he were to make such a proposal.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

There seems to be a significant proportion of transit advocates that seem to believe that Finch West transit improvements are disposable. These advocates should really try riding the Finch West bus in person. It is by far the most crowded TTC surface bus route I’ve had the (dis)pleasure of riding. You’ll see two or three articulated buses bunched up at a single stop and still see a large crowd of passengers at the stop unable to board. The only surface route comparable to this crowding that I’ve experienced in the 504 King car. And ridership projections only show Finch West ridership increasing over the coming decades. Any plan that eliminates higher order transit along Etobicoke-Finch West is unacceptable. We’re not going to continue to subjugate riders of the busiest bus route in the city (without higher order improvements) to this. Scarborough isn’t the only place that matters in this city.

 

[Hopkins123]

Canceling Sheppard and especially Finch West is an unacceptable tradeoff. This isn’t about Ford. I’d be equally furious at Tory if he were to make such a proposal.

But that's precisely the point though. Replacing two disjointed surface LRT lines with one interconnected grade separated line that stretches from the Airport to all the way Malvern IS an acceptable trade-off. If the $3 billion+ going towards those light rail projects had gotten us a proper crosstown route instead it would be worth its weight in gold. And remember the affected dutifully elected Ward councillors aren't even invested in seeing either of those lines ever come to fruition, so there's that to consider.

 

[Hopkins123]

There seems to be a significant proportion of transit advocates that seem to believe that Finch West transit improvements are disposable. These advocates should really try riding the Finch West bus in person. It is by far the most crowded TTC surface bus route I’ve had the (dis)pleasure of riding. You’ll see two or three articulated buses bunched up at a single stop and still see a large crowd of passengers at the stop unable to board. The only surface route comparable to this crowding that I’ve experienced in the 504 King car. And ridership projections only show Finch West ridership increasing over the coming decades. Any plan that eliminates higher order transit along Etobicoke-Finch West is unacceptable. We’re not going to continue to subjugate riders of the busiest bus route in the city (without higher order improvements) to this. Scarborough isn’t the only place that matters in this city.

Okay, let's get real here. I ride the Finch West bus. It's not that bad. The whole length from Yonge to Humberwood isn't overcrowded. It runs less than half empty west of Kipling to Humberwood most times outside of school hours. A lot of the pick up in riders at Kipling dissipates along the way across (many people get off at Weston and at Jane, for instance), and I'd imagine the numbers heading over to Yonge will drop off significantly once Finch West opens in merely a couple months time. There's no need to catastrophize the situation on the 36 bus. Finch East is actually busier too.

The investment Etobicoke truly needs is grade-separating Crosstown West. Most of Rexdale is within 30 minutes of either the Eglinton corridor or Keele and Finch (and Jane and Steeles for that matter). So Etobicoke will still have it far better than two-thirds of Scarborough does or ever hopes to have with the hostilities it's getting.

 

[BurlOak]

Okay, let's get real here. I ride the Finch West bus. It's not that bad. The whole length from Yonge to Humberwood isn't overcrowded. It runs less than half empty west of Kipling to Humberwood most times outside of school hours. A lot of the pick up in riders at Kipling dissipates along the way across (many people get off at Weston and at Jane, for instance), and I'd imagine the numbers heading over to Yonge will drop off significantly once Finch West opens in merely a couple months time. There's no need to catastrophize the situation on the 36 bus. Finch East is actually busier too.

The investment Etobicoke truly needs is grade-separating Crosstown West. Most of Rexdale is within 30 minutes of either the Eglinton corridor or Keele and Finch (and Jane and Steeles for that matter). So Etobicoke will still have it far better than two-thirds of Scarborough does or ever hopes to have with the hostilities it's getting.

You're right. The Spadina extension is already doing something for the Finch West bus. It is now 6km shorter to a subway. a GO RER stop near Woodbine racetrack, and some adjustments to buses to run South to GO RER and/or Eglinton would have also helped Finch.

As stated, grade-separating Eglinton is the priority. The study from a year or two ago found the best benefit cost was for the grade-separated one with fewer stop. A bit of optimization and elevation and this can be done for a reasonable amount of money.

 

[sixrings]

I want a eglinton west extension so I won't complain too much but I'm pretty sure finch bus riders would prefer to take a lrt to the subway than a bus. For all the claims that people who are against the danforth extension are in order to preserve a miller legacy it sure appears that their is a equal amount of people who want to preserve ford's legacy of if you're a public transit rider than you should be happy with a bus.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Okay, let's get real here. I ride the Finch West bus. It's not that bad. The whole length from Yonge to Humberwood isn't overcrowded.

Yeah. And the entire Yonge line from Vaughan to VMC isn’t overcrowded either.

Finch Line, especially between Jane and Keele, has been extremely crowded and slow at all the times I’ve used it during rush hour. The levels of crowding I’ve observed are nowhere near acceptable, and this crowding will only get worse over the coming decades.

Eglinton West is getting an LRT, and I’ve never seen crowding anywhere as bad as Finch West.

It is now 6km shorter to a subway.

The subway isn’t going to do anything to relieve the Finch peak hour crowding west of Keele Street. In fact, it might even make it worse, with induced demand from TYSSE being a factor.

 

[BurlOak]

I want a eglinton west extension so I won't complain too much but I'm pretty sure finch bus riders would prefer to take a lrt to the subway than a bus. For all the claims that people who are against the danforth extension are in order to preserve a miller legacy it sure appears that their is a equal amount of people who want to preserve ford's legacy of if you're a public transit rider than you should be happy with a bus.

How many of those Finch West users don't live on Finch. Sheppard doesn't make it past Humber River. Steeles goes to Finch anyways. If some North-South routes would connect with a GO RER at Etobicoke North or Woodbine/Hwy27, that can't help but relieve Finch.

 

[BurlOak]

Okay, let's get real here. I ride the Finch West bus. It's not that bad. The whole length from Yonge to Humberwood isn't overcrowded. It runs less than half empty west of Kipling to Humberwood most times outside of school hours. A lot of the pick up in riders at Kipling dissipates along the way across (many people get off at Weston and at Jane, for instance), and I'd imagine the numbers heading over to Yonge will drop off significantly once Finch West opens in merely a couple months time. There's no need to catastrophize the situation on the 36 bus. Finch East is actually busier too.

That's why I think the "Malvern Extension" should have made it to Morningside/Finch.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

How many of those Finch West users don't live on Finch. Sheppard doesn't make it past Humber River. Steeles goes to Finch anyways. If some North-South routes would connect with a GO RER at Etobicoke North or Woodbine/Hwy27, that can't help but relieve Finch.

Like in Scarborough, only a relatively small portion of commuters are on the downtown-bound trips RER is designed to serve. Furthermore, the costs of RER services will render it inaccessible for a large portion of commuters - a $1.50 surcharge with 40 trips a month will cost $720 annually per person. This isn’t going to be a solution to crowding on the city’s busiest bus route. The LRT is.

 

[sixrings]

How many of those Finch West users don't live on Finch. Sheppard doesn't make it past Humber River. Steeles goes to Finch anyways. If some North-South routes would connect with a GO RER at Etobicoke North or Woodbine/Hwy27, that can't help but relieve Finch.

There is a heck of a lot of density on finch itself. I'd be shocked if the majority of riders of Finch weren't walk on riders versus transfers. The reason the subway lines have so many transfers from bus onto them is because they are located rather central in comparison to the rest of the city. So if you live anywhere outside the center you bus to it. Who would bus to finch (which is almost at the border of the city)only to transfer there and then transfer again at the subway? Based on this thread I'd assume people were making the least amount of transfers.

 

[Leo_Chan]

I would assume if Finch West Etobicoke residents were like Scarborough Centre residents, then they would not want the Finch West LRT, and instead would want a Sheppard Subway Extension from Sheppard-Yonge to Sheppard West to Finch West to Humber College. two-stops of course