|
|
|
Thanks for that! Hamilton also hasn't decided what vehicles it will use, or exactly how many it will need, so it could chew up a pretty big chunk of those. There's also the Eglinton east and west extensions, and iON Phase II that haven't been factored into the order yet. I don't think there will be any problem finding homes for these "surplus" vehicles. Fear not muller877, this won't be another "Fiberal" (seriously? come on) "disaster". This is a prudent hedging of bets to avoid paying $500,000 per day in late fees if Eglinton can't open on time.
steveintoronto
Superstar
lol...when people bring totally uncalled for political jargon into an engineering discussion, they automatically discount themselves from being taken seriously....seriously.
It's too soon to fully tell, but this might be one of the best 'misfortunes' to happen to Metrolinx. Like tripping over a chest of gold, and then complaining about stubbing your toe. Btw: I'm exploring whether the fifth module can be added into the four module one on order. It appears to be the case, but I want written text reference.
Back later on that.
steveintoronto
Superstar
I'm still looking for more definitive engineering reference, but if we can trust the PR, (and I see indications of this being the case elsewhere) then a fifth module can be added in (some Citadis models in France have *seven* modules, but there may technical pre-requisites as per model specs):
Here is a rough comparison of the two trains
[...]
The Citadis Spirit is the most versatile solution for meeting a broad
range of transit needs in growing cities. Thanks to its modular design,
the Spirit can grow with a city as its transportation needs evolve. Citadis
Spirit can be applied as a solution to meet initial service requirements
and then be expanded to meet increased ridership by adding additional
modules to extend the length of the vehicles while optimizing fleet
asset life. The Spirit also has the unique capability to operate as a
streetcar running at grade in mixed traffic and as a light commuter on
segregated rail infrastructure at speeds up to 65 mph, providing very
high capacity in its longest versions or in multiple units. In its automatic
version with high capacity vehicles, the Spirit can fulfill transit needs
similar to those of a metro system.
[...]
http://www.alstom.com/Global/Transp... Spirit - Brochure - EN.pdf?epslanguage=en-GB
With added modules, the maximizing of passenger load per train length increases v coupling train sections together. One presumes all bogies are driven for performance not to be reduced as a consequence.
Still digging on this.
Ozman
Active Member
Metrolinx talks about the penalty they'll have to pay to Crosslinx (the contractor) if the vehicles are late. Is this normal for a customer to agree to pay the contractor they hired to build the project a penalty fee if part of the project isn't supplied to the contractor on time?
If I understand this correctly: Bombardier will have to pay Metrolinx $1,ooo per day per vehicle for every day that the Flexity Freedoms are late delivered. Meanwhile, Metrolinx has agreed to pay the Crosslinx consortium $500,000 per day (per vehicle?) for everyday the vehicles are late, presumably because the line can't be finished/tested/commissioned without vehicles). So Metrolinx will be losing $499,000 per day (per vehicle?).
Meanwhile Bombardier has been sub-contracted by Crosslinx to do signalling and ATC for the line. Will this work smoothly if they have to put they ATC modules on Alstom trains?
What a mess.
Please correct me if I haven't got any of the above correct and enlighten me or expand.
If I understand this correctly: Bombardier will have to pay Metrolinx $1,ooo per day per vehicle for every day that the Flexity Freedoms are late delivered. Meanwhile, Metrolinx has agreed to pay the Crosslinx consortium $500,000 per day (per vehicle?) for everyday the vehicles are late, presumably because the line can't be finished/tested/commissioned without vehicles). So Metrolinx will be losing $499,000 per day (per vehicle?).
Meanwhile Bombardier has been sub-contracted by Crosslinx to do signalling and ATC for the line. Will this work smoothly if they have to put they ATC modules on Alstom trains?
What a mess.
Please correct me if I haven't got any of the above correct and enlighten me or expand.
syn
Senior Member
The Alstom trains definitely look better.
I'm glad the province made a move on this. Supporting local companies is great, but Bombardier seems like a company that should've been out of business a long time ago.
I'm glad the province made a move on this. Supporting local companies is great, but Bombardier seems like a company that should've been out of business a long time ago.
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
Rendering with Mx livery:
This looks terrible. Hopefully this is just a quick render thrown together for the announcement, and not a reflection of final design.
Steve X
Senior Member
Remember how the Flexity streetcars looked in the render.
Thank god they didn't end up looking like a shiny silver tank.
Attachments
DonValleyRainbow
Senior Member
Member Bio
- Joined
- Mar 5, 2014
- Messages
- 2,867
- Reaction score
- 1,928
- Location
- Kay Gardner Beltline Trail
I'm thinking it is. But then again, queue the debate over whetehr these will end up being TTC or Metrolinx branded...
Leo_Chan
Senior Member
Right in the middle: Orange, on Line 5, Eglinton Line, Eglinton Crosstown, Midtown Line, Orange Line, Cheap Subway Line, Expensive Streetcar Line. Whatever you want to call it.
IMO, it would be both TTC and Metrolinx branded with an orange colour scheme.
rbt
Senior Member
Kinda, yes.
Metrolinx is actually a subcontractor in this case too. More importantly, Metrolinx also will not take ownership of the line (or pay the invoice!) until the line is production ready. Crosslinx has carrying costs (due to delayed payment) and maintenance costs for the new infrastructure during that interim period.
In short, since Metrolinx wrote themselves in as a subcontractor, they have the normal penalties that any major subcontractor on the project has.
The maintenance part of the agreement is coming straight out of TTC fare revenues (plus some probably), and TTC certainly isn't paying operations costs for a line that isn't production ready.
nfitz
Superstar
That's completely out to lunch. The Waterloo cars (14 of them - though they do have an option for another 14) aren't part of Metrolinx's 182. The total Flexity Freedom's on order is 196. Eglinton is 76. Finch West is 23 (Sheppard East is 35, and the SRT was 48). And of course the numbers include spares ...
Steve X
Senior Member
Of course those were cooked up. The Bombardier and Alstom LRVs are even equivalent. The total does include 15% spare. 15% is not a good ratio for a line with a small fleet like the ION and Finch. 20% makes more sense in that case. A collision on one LRV would take 7% out of the ION leaving them with one spare. That would be bad.
The ION does have a 16 vehicle option that Metrolinx could sell to KW. ML still claims Sheppard will happen one day and thus those LRVs won't be wasted. If Crosstown West and East both gets built, a large number would be allocated there.
This Alstom order has to be pretty much the same as the Ottawa ones so ML doesn't need a prototype to go through climate and regulation testing. They only got 1.5 years to start manufacturing the production vehicles and they don't have time to sort out any issues with a new design. They'll need a least half a year to acquire a factory and train people. The parts will probably roll off the current Ottawa LRV assembly line.
TOareaFan
Superstar
Aren't the cars ordered for Crosstown from BBD the same as the ones for Waterloo? If so, and there is no need for a separate prototype for the Alstoms, why is ML so hung up on getting a separate prototype from BBD? (should be noted that BBD says their prototype is ready anyway).
EastYorkTTCFan
Senior Member
If they are anything like the ones in Ottawa I hope they never see use in Toronto as they look hideous, the Ottawa ones are very box like and not streamlined like the Flexes are.