rbt
Senior Member
We put a unicorn on our passport. Surely the federal government has a plan for them.
Richmond Hill Yonge Line 1 North Subway Extension | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx
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We put a unicorn on our passport. Surely the federal government has a plan for them.
44 North
Senior Member
Okay, but you brought up Jane from VMC to Wonderland, not me. Viva silver is the BRT system planned. It's to run its entire length in mixed traffic, has a per km capital cost of $1M, doesn't really fit any definition of "BRT", and really isn't upgradable to LRT.
Remind me again who brought it up, and specifically mentioned my screen name when they did (which is a recurring pattern of yours)?
Ah yes, Langstaff Gateway. The supposed perfect planned community, where seemingly no design competition was required, that was reverse-engineered by the supposed best urban planner in the world, and where all loose ends are tied since transit infrastructure is planned "IN ADVANCE"... Or perhaps a two-kilometre elongate site, where only 100m actually fronts onto Yonge, where the only commuter rail option had its improvements delayed indefinitely, which has virtually none of the usual ingredients of a centre, and where there's no tangible plan to bring the future 1000s of residents/employees beyond 400m-800m of their RT station.
Like I've said on many occasions I have few qualms with planning/building transit to future developments, so long as I know it's been done holistically or that this isn't yet another example of political porkbarreling and top-down planning. But with regards to LG I can't exactly see it being a shining example of TOD, and believe there to be some glaring oversights that should make level-headed ppl scratch their heads and wonder whether the tenet of Field of Dreams will come true.
Take the East Bayfront and Lower Don Lands, but imagine a wall around 95% of it. If WaterfronTO held no design competition and simply hired one planner, happily proclaimed this is the upper crust of urban planning, and said we don't need to plan any E/W transit infrastructure since some of the future people are within walking distance of Union station - I'd question the viability of it. And if they said the thousands who aren't within walking distance can maybe, eventually, one day ride an elevated pod system that their own planner called "unique and quirky" (but they have no plans to build) - again I would question the viability of it. Not to mention question the transit mode share numbers and overall worthiness of the subway extension that spurred the proposal.
Can't be certain, but remind me again who brought this up and specifically mentioned my screen name?
TJ O'Pootertoot
Senior Member
I wasn't going to reply to any of this but I just want to clarify this one: you think municipalities hold design competitions for communities? You don't think he won an RFP? for that matter, you are likely unaware it was both the landowners and municipalities who, though it rarely if ever happens, picked him together. How undemocratic! Criminal, even! But, again, regardless of whether I think he's the "best urban planner in the world," I am fairly confident he knows more than you (and me!). I am also fairly confident that he and his team and the other planners and planning firms they worked with are well aware of every single concern of yours, and equally confident they can address it.
I have my reasons for believing it will happen and you have yours for why it won't. That's fine. Time will tell
And in case your wondering, yes, I did take 2 shots when you said, "pods." Because, they are totally important. The pods.
And I like mentioning your name, because I think we all appreciate the personal touch. don't we, 44north?
Really I was just making a little joke - as I sometimes attempt and perhaps even fail to do - to lighten the mood. I was merely saying York Region is not putting subways all over the place but on 2 spines, off of which they are running BRT (which is upgradable to LRT, at least along Yonge and 7). I figured you'd mention they DO want subways all over, so I made an ironic jest. for this, I apologize.
And let me officially go on record: I fully support investment in both teleporter technology and the flying car. If either can be made pod-shaped, so much the better.
kEiThZ
Superstar
Why? It's not necessary. I would like to see Hwy 7 upgraded to LRT some day. I thought BRT was little less than ambitious....
W. K. Lis
Superstar
Hush! There are some who consider a Bus Rapid Transit the "be all that ends all".
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
It's the thread that never ends; it goes on and on again...
salsa
Senior Member
To you this investment is less than ambitions?
I like LRT but the ridership in York Region is not even close to justifying it, and the current service is not very frequent (especially off-peak). There are dozens of TTC routes that run in mixed traffic which have both better ridership and better service than any of these Viva routes, despite all the fancy new infrastructure.
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kEiThZ
Superstar
Than LRT in a corridor suited for LRT? Yes.
jaycola
Active Member
When Tory accuses York region politicians of being "irresponsible" in pushing the upper tier governments on this, he should keep in mind the main points within this opinion. This article was from a couple weeks ago on torontoist.com. Take note of the comments section too.
"How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Yonge Subway Extension
Toronto has a series of legitimate concerns, but let’s take a deep breath and try to see things from York Region’s perspective for a minute.
...But only the Yonge extension is (condtionally) approved by city council, its Environmental Assessment has gathered dust since 2009. The projected costs are around $4 billion and, as with the DRL, no source is earmarked. Unlike that other suburban subway, the extension is expected to add so many new riders that it will potentially push Yonge-Bloor past the breaking point and overwhelm the system.
...Whereas Scarborough has precisely zero new residential units planned and whereas even Jennifer Keesmaat proclaims it “isn’t yet ready” for intensification (though the city designated it a node in 1981), plans are already in place along York Region’s subway corridor for more than 50,000 new residents and (hopefully) jobs to match. Markham and Richmond Hill brought in world class urban design firms to harness a unique convergence of transit and create precisely the sort of transit- and pedestrian-oriented centres we say we want to see in the suburbs. Toronto is also updating its Secondary Plan for the area, making this arguably the single biggest potential intensification corridor in the region.
...What can actually get things moving forward? Regional politicians and municipal staff could work with one another instead of constantly being at odds. We should have a mature discussion with citizens about ongoing, stable funding for transit that makes it easy for the human beings who actually ride the system, even if they happen to live across an arbitrary geographic line. We can treat transit like a vital region-building tool and not a platform for pork-barrel spending. We could even learn from our mistakes rather than repeating them ad nauseam.
http://torontoist.com/2016/07/yonge-subway/
"How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Yonge Subway Extension
Toronto has a series of legitimate concerns, but let’s take a deep breath and try to see things from York Region’s perspective for a minute.
...But only the Yonge extension is (condtionally) approved by city council, its Environmental Assessment has gathered dust since 2009. The projected costs are around $4 billion and, as with the DRL, no source is earmarked. Unlike that other suburban subway, the extension is expected to add so many new riders that it will potentially push Yonge-Bloor past the breaking point and overwhelm the system.
...Whereas Scarborough has precisely zero new residential units planned and whereas even Jennifer Keesmaat proclaims it “isn’t yet ready” for intensification (though the city designated it a node in 1981), plans are already in place along York Region’s subway corridor for more than 50,000 new residents and (hopefully) jobs to match. Markham and Richmond Hill brought in world class urban design firms to harness a unique convergence of transit and create precisely the sort of transit- and pedestrian-oriented centres we say we want to see in the suburbs. Toronto is also updating its Secondary Plan for the area, making this arguably the single biggest potential intensification corridor in the region.
...What can actually get things moving forward? Regional politicians and municipal staff could work with one another instead of constantly being at odds. We should have a mature discussion with citizens about ongoing, stable funding for transit that makes it easy for the human beings who actually ride the system, even if they happen to live across an arbitrary geographic line. We can treat transit like a vital region-building tool and not a platform for pork-barrel spending. We could even learn from our mistakes rather than repeating them ad nauseam.
http://torontoist.com/2016/07/yonge-subway/
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TJ O'Pootertoot
Senior Member
That dude's like my brutha from anotha motha! And, hey, I recognize someone in the comments! Why didn't you share, Northy? We need to keep this thread going with all the news fit to print or blog or whatever. A couple of weeks old? I hope I speak for many when I say I'm hurt you didn't think of us.
BTW, what makes you think the Transit City money was conditional ? Isn't it stunningly obvious by now - since all of the money except the Crosstown has been repurposed 5 times over - that it never was? As a great man once told me, plans change. Like that Don River guy said, obviously unconditional (at least subject to MOU negotiations). Toronto made a plan, the province gave them money to execute it. When the plan changed, the money was reapportioned. Isn't that all history at this point?
It's probably old news on this thread but I think the stuff about intensification is significant. I was kind of shaking my head when Keesmaat said that about Scarborough. If the market isn't ready there - several decades into a "suburban node" experiment that hasn't worked - why don't we build transit (subways, even!) where the market is obviously exploding. There's more than 1 reason Scarborough Centre hasn't become what was hoped but the fact they have an RT instead of a subway strikes me as an unlikely excuse.
It's a demonstrable fact the market is ready in Thornhill (and North York) so, all respect to the DRL, why is Scarborough a bigger priority?
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Z
zenmeister
Guest
Is it that Scarborough is not getting the same kind of attention from developers as other areas, is that what she meant? If so, why is it that places like Vaughan, Richmond Hill, Markham, Mississauga are getting so much more attention? Is it a fault with the city's planning?
TJ O'Pootertoot
Senior Member
I read Keesmaat's statement as an excuse or euphimism. She's saying developers don't want to build there but allegedly will when there's a subway. Nevermind that the planning policy has been in place for close to 40 years and and they've had RT for most of that. Allegedly it's the subway holding them back. Should be plenty of people on this board who take umbrage at the notion that a subway - and only a subway - is the difference between success and failure.
Here's her full quote:
As Keesmaat said, the existing streetscape is full of flyovers and highway off-ramps and wide high-speed roads. The formerly industrial area doesn’t right now offer property values that make it worth developing. “The market isn’t yet ready for intensification,” she said.
And how much more time do they need to start changing that? We're looking back to the early 80s that this has been happening, vs. maybe 1/3 the time since VMC was envisioned. The Langstaff Gateway plans didn't even exist in 2005, much less 1985.
It's not city planning's fault. It's essentially the same planning regime as what's in North York Centre and it's booming there. When I say, "because it's Yonge Street," I get chided (by SOME people) but it's there to see in black and white (or concrete and steel, if you prefer). It's plain to see, objectively, that the Yonge corridor, from Finch to 7 (really almost to Major Mac) is "ready" in all the ways Toronto's chief planner concedes that Scarborough "isn't." What do you think the cost is of an acre in Langstaff vs. Scarborough? (I don't know, personally, but I think it's obvious the answer is "more.")
Everything that happens is an intersection between policy and the market and it's abundantly clear that developers have far more interest building on Yonge Street (though I get chided for pointing that out too) and places around downtown. That's where people want to live so that's where people are building. you can't force people to live in Scarborough simply by providing a subway any more than you stop development in Thornhill by denying one.
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44 North
Senior Member
yep there's a world outside this forum. Surprising eh? Lol
Fyi that article's comment section is still open. How bout using it?
TJ O'Pootertoot
Senior Member
Maybe I did and I'm just toying with you -there's a mindbender.
Nah,I don't read those downtown, hipster sites. But good to know it's out there, thinking about us way up here
W. K. Lis
Superstar
More likely the NIMBYs in Scarborough are busy putting up roadblocks to developments. Starting with sidewalks, they don't want urbanization, which includes higher density buildings.
The towns, cities, and neighbourhoods above Finch Avenue on Yonge Street are giving developers the go ahead more than Scarborough.
The towns, cities, and neighbourhoods above Finch Avenue on Yonge Street are giving developers the go ahead more than Scarborough.