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Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

THIS!!!!!

OMG THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Why can't the Scarborough Defender coffey1 think this way?????????

Why is this so hard to do??? It boggles the mind!

I feel the same way. Just the opposite viewpoint.

I lived in in the 905, I live downtown for 3 years, and now Scarborough. The awkwardness and disdain from inside the core & media towards its suburbs is unjust. Most people even don't even realize it & truly believe it doesn't exist. Its truly saddened me to see intelligent people so far out of touch in a different life that they cant even notice this major issue. Most have rarely ever been to Scarborough a few grew up and left for better transit, careers etc. Some had family member who worked near GO stations and all was good. Many others do have the means to pay $15 GO plus $6 TTC a day to get to work. There are so many differing situations here

This doesn't mean I advocate the most expensive solution. I want to see plans the put the highest value on inclusiveness to the current network in this City. This isn't the 905 is TTC and Toronto were connecting. Im about inclusiveness and fair integration with well thought out plans. Some figures in this debate are true and some are political motivated. Some are true but were created to justify a motive. But the issue is these numbers and figures are selectively pulled a will to fit a narrative on either side. Almost all of these figures that are being used were never the standard when previous lines were built. The argument on both side is absolutely Political monkey business. Scarborough's side doesn't get told until elections because no one listens & they don't have a media spreading "facts" to justify a cause.

I see from this forum that their is a huge lack of understanding that cant be easily solved. But I see hope in the fact that politicians are taking a strong stance against those that don't care, are misinformed/mislead, or just completely unaware. What's the cost of a compromise that prioritizes integration for Scarborough? There are solutions better than what we have to atleast give Scarborough a bit more integration than Transfer City while given those that have transit some idea that we are not just eating money on crazy one stop extension.
 
My theory is that Tory sees there are a lot of angry people in Scarboro, but knows he can't come out and say "yeah, it's a dumb idea, but they want it, so I have to give it to them" So he offers lame excuses to keep the subway alive, while tryig not to endorse the 'poor us' thing, and keeps hoping for some Plan C to emerge that will save the day. The one-stop Plan B at least diverted some of the original spend to a useful purpose. I'm sure he's hoping someone will pull another rabbit out of the hat.

None of us have figured out such an alternative. I agree we should not be dissing this angry group. While I disagree with @coffey1, he is doing us a favour by reminding us that these folks won't go away just because we find them irrational. They may be the swing vote in the next mayoral race. We ignore them at our peril - as David Cameron found.

The danger of the subway is that once we build it, and it doesn't make anyone's life better, those angry people will just stay mad and demand something else. Building more LRT will help lots of people, and that will dampen the anger for many.

If we are going to build this thing, we need an immediate anchor at STC that overcomes the poor economics which discourages development there. There's one no brainer winner : a major league sports stadium. I'm dead serious..... move one of the current teams out of downtown, if we can't buy a new NHL or NFL franchise. Skydome is a lousy facility anyways. Move Jays or Raptors out there, it might or might not encourage development, but the need for a status symbol subway will be forgotten immediately.

- Paul
 
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If we are going to build this thing, we need an immediate anchor at STC that overcomes the poor economics which discourages development there. There's one no brainer winner : a major league sports stadium. I'm dead serious..... move one of the current teams out of downtown, if we can't buy a new NHL or NFL franchise. Skydome is a lousy facility anyways. Move Jays or Raptors out there, it might or might not encourage development, but the need for a status symbol subway will be forgotten immediately.
Can't we just give them the Argos?
 
Oh, Tory know's its a bad plan. Plus it interferes with his SmartTrack baby. He wants this thing dead, I have no doubts about that. It would make life so much simpler if it just went away. But he's in too deep. He can't bail now.
 
I feel the same way. Just the opposite viewpoint.

Gosh you really are obtuse.

You keep bringing up the same irrelevant arguments.

"Fairness"
"Politics"
"Inclusiveness"
"Downtown vs the Suburbs"
"Disdain"

None of this is a) true or b) relevant to making the appropriate, rational, cost-effective transit solution in Scarborough.

If we used those arguments whenever we chose where to build transit, you would get people in Bracebridge complaining "hey, Toronto gets all the transit! We deserve a subway here, we demand it or we will be angry and feel excluded", then we would feel intimidated and cave in and spend billions overbuilding stupid transit.

Does that make sense? Do we accommodate everyone that has an irrational feeling of exclusion?

On the other hand, if we built transit when and where the demand justifies it, we wouldn't have white elephants like the Sheppard subway which we disproportionally subsidize.

Or do you want to suck billions and billions from the rest of the city now and for years to come in operating costs for a 1 stop subway that will be White Elephant #2?

Why can't this conversation be about ridership and not the BS arguments that too many people from Scarborough spout off like angry children expecting to get their way?

Or do you even care about ridership?
 
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Gosh you really are obtuse.

You keep bringing up the same irrelevant arguments.

"Fairness"
"Politics"
"Inclusiveness"
"Downtown vs the Suburbs"
"Disdain"

None of this is a) true or b) relevant to making the appropriate, rational, cost-effective transit solution in Scarborough.

If we used those arguments whenever we chose were to build transit, you would get people in Bracebridge complaining "hey, Toronto gets all the transit! We deserve a subway here, we demand it or we will be angry and feel excluded", then we would feel intimidated and cave and spend billions overbuilding stupid transit.

Does that make sense? Do we accommodate everyone that has an irrational feeling of exclusion?

On the other hand, if we built transit when and where the demand justifies it, we wouldn't have white elephants like the Sheppard subway which we disproportionally subsidize.

Or do you want to suck billions and billions from the rest of the city now and for years to come in operating costs for a 1 stop subway that will be White Elephant #2?

Why can't this conversation be about ridership and not the BS arguments that too many people from Scarborough spout off like angry children expecting to get their way?

Or do you even care about ridership?
He does not.

It entirely comes down to "fairness" and satisfying the weird and unncecesary Scarborough inferiority complex.
 
My theory is that Tory sees there are a lot of angry people in Scarboro, but knows he can't come out and say "yeah, it's a dumb idea, but they want it, so I have to give it to them" So he offers lame excuses to keep the subway alive, while tryig not to endorse the 'poor us' thing, and keeps hoping for some Plan C to emerge that will save the day. The one-stop Plan B at least diverted some of the original spend to a useful purpose. I'm sure he's hoping someone will pull another rabbit out of the hat.

None of us have figured out such an alternative. I agree we should not be dissing this angry group. While I disagree with @coffey1, he is doing us a favour by reminding us that these folks won't go away just because we find them irrational. They may be the swing vote in the next mayoral race. We ignore them at our peril - as David Cameron found.

The danger of the subway is that once we build it, and it doesn't make anyone's life better, those angry people will just stay mad and demand something else. Building more LRT will help lots of people, and that will dampen the anger for many.

If we are going to build this thing, we need an immediate anchor at STC that overcomes the poor economics which discourages development there. There's one no brainer winner : a major league sports stadium. I'm dead serious..... move one of the current teams out of downtown, if we can't buy a new NHL or NFL franchise. Skydome is a lousy facility anyways. Move Jays or Raptors out there, it might or might not encourage development, but the need for a status symbol subway will be forgotten immediately.

- Paul

Yes there are a ton of angry people its clear from the last 2 elections that were enraged over not being listened too. Transit anger was a HUGE part of these elections. Many Scarborough citizens are angry at both Transfer City &most of us are not all that trilled with the one stop subway plan. Tory also knows there are also angry people still advocating SLRT and the majority of them currently live a reasonable distance to a subway stop in transit rich areas which he has also clearly mentioned. These people are out of touch and not by any fault they just have little in common with most Scarborough area concerns in addition there are other project motives to want cheap out on Scarborough's transit future. Tory has also been quite clear about this recently.

Its unfortunate that's its one political design flop vs another when effort could have been made to integrate Scarborough seamlessly from the get go. LRT would have been loved on Sheppard is they paid to convert the Stubway.... But it didn't happen and it became an easy line to attack when McGuinty was scaling it back and the SMLRT was dropped completely by Metrolinx. The Sheppard LRT then became a divisive design or Sheppard residents alone. Then the crappy RT to SLRT replacement continuing to connect a (TORONTO) GROWTH CENTER with a transfer on a lackluster route to begin with. People love to re-itterate that SCC is struggling with development. Not a shock to me... A big part is the RT sucks, the transfer is not attractive to commuters or business & there is so much uncertainty with what will be built. A subway will be much more attractive and provide SCC the best opportunity to succeed. But at what cost COST? Well for a bit more money a subway can be designed to follow a similar surface route to the SLRT. Not perfect but worth every extra penny for this areas future. Even greater if it went to Sheppard now or in the future.

Tory knows that there is no way in hell to go back to Transfer City both financially & politically. So its seems it's finally time for solutions and not polarizing ideas. Keesmat has intelligently added the SMLRT (Crosstown Extension) back and not only is this a great EAST-WEST seamless line going thru key areas ithas put some life back into the Sheppard LRT. Although not completely fair it would be great as part of a major loop. He is on the record himself saying he is looking for ways to bring the SSE cost down. Not sure what that is. My hope is the multi stop surface subway is atleast explored. But im confident he listening to both sides.

If a compromise can be found to integrate SCC seamlessly neither side will fully win for what they are looking for and neither side will be losing. The future for the entire City will be much brighter. I clearly see many don't understand the various needs of this massive Suburb and It seems like they never will for many reasons which even I find hard and disappointing to see. The bottom line a compromised transit plan will likely be the biggest step possible to ensuring this Polarization never hits this extreme again. I really don't want to see the fallout of a compromise and what damage it would do in the next election.

I get accused of a lot of unfair things here at times as transit forums are not really Scarborough territory and the view are moderate to extreme on one side for the most part. And although I have my bias I do try to see both sides to an extent and just want to see some attempt at integration as i believe it will be the biggest factor in saving the City from further political nightmares. Time to move on together. Hopefully.
 
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^Well I certainly hope you're mad about the one-stop subway plan, because it makes zero sense!

As for the transfers... why exactly are transfers an issue? In other cities, people transfer multiple times on their way to work. This is going to become more and more unavoidable as we add more and more lines. The arrangement of Toronto's lines (pretty grid-based) does negate this issue somewhat, but it is still present.

Spending billions because of a transfer that was going to be drastically improved anyways seems a little silly.

Massive suburbs... subway that only serves one tiny portion of it... yeah, great plan. Meanwhile other suburban municipalities are happy and content with bus rapid ways and LRTs.

The one thing I will give you, I don't think the LRTs design was thought through very well. Having a transfer at Sheppard, and Kennedy is a little much and *does* disconnect Scarborough from the rest of the city. I can admit that much. Plus the annoyingly close slop spacing on shepherd, lack of even an attempt at grade separation... the plan wasn't exactly inspired.
 
^Well I certainly hope you're mad about the one-stop subway plan, because it makes zero sense!

As for the transfers... why exactly are transfers an issue? In other cities, people transfer multiple times on their way to work. This is going to become more and more unavoidable as we add more and more lines. The arrangement of Toronto's lines (pretty grid-based) does negate this issue somewhat, but it is still present.

Spending billions because of a transfer that was going to be drastically improved anyways seems a little silly.

Massive suburbs... subway that only serves one tiny portion of it... yeah, great plan. Meanwhile other suburban municipalities are happy and content with bus rapid ways and LRTs.

The one thing I will give you, I don't think the LRTs design was thought through very well. Having a transfer at Sheppard, and Kennedy is a little much and *does* disconnect Scarborough from the rest of the city. I can admit that much. Plus the annoyingly close slop spacing on shepherd, lack of even an attempt at grade separation... the plan wasn't exactly inspired.

Its not the transfer. It's the importance of where these transfers reside. If you don't get it you never will. In a perfect world we would see seamless LRT on Sheppard instead of a blatant dual class line, a funded SMLRT and a 7 STOP subway extension. We'll likely settle for one of the two transfer being fixed but not both staying. Sorry to beak the news and really just being honest it's more than likely not happening or even being considered. So find a better way instead of repeating the same garbage plan over and over. Even if you really really love it. Time to move on.

A 7 stop subway does as much as a 7 stop LRT and the extra cost is worth every penny for us. Would love to know that cost compared to the one stop SSE. Instead of complaining it would be more constructive to find cheaper subway solutions because offering to replace one crap plan with another to an area with absolutely nothing is just not go to end well for anyone next election. Just a hunch.

The narrative has been to find all the fact to justify NOT building the SSE. Gonna be hard for the polarized Left to accept they have to take off the "7 stop LRT" key off the media's keyboard.
 
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Have a transfer at Kennedy if you're going downtown. But transfer to the rail corridor instead, and not have to ride through the entire Danforth and be greeted by that age old Bloor/Yonge bottleneck to make it even worse.
 
Its not the transfer. It's the importance of where these transfers reside. If you don't get it you never will. In a perfect world we would see seamless LRT on Sheppard instead of a blatant dual class line, a funded SMLRT and a 7 STOP subway extension. We'll likely settle for one of the two transfer being fixed but not both staying. Sorry to beak the news and really just being honest it's more than likely not happening or even being considered. So find a better way instead of repeating the same garbage plan over and over. Even if you really really love it. Time to move on.

A 7 stop subway does as much as a 7 stop LRT and the extra cost is worth every penny for us. Would love to know that cost compared to the one stop SSE. Instead of complaining it would be more constructive to find cheaper subway solutions because offering to replace one crap plan with another to an area with absolutely nothing is just not go to end well for anyone next election. Just a hunch.

The narrative has been to find all the fact to justify NOT building the SSE. Gonna be hard for the polarized Left to accept they have to take off the "7 stop LRT" key off the media's keyboard.
First of all, you do realize its the liberal government not nuking this project from orbit, yes? Can we stop with the "left is evil" rhetoric?

Second, Scarborough is not the only part of the city that needs transit relief. Everyone does. Scarborough getting exactly what they want means someone else does not. I'm not even going to comment not he nonsense 7-stop subway remark. A nice dream, sure. But impossible.

"If you don't get it you never will. "

Funny, I was thinking the same about you.

Happy Canada Day, though.
 
First of all, you do realize its the liberal government not nuking this project from orbit, yes? Can we stop with the "left is evil" rhetoric?

Second, Scarborough is not the only part of the city that needs transit relief. Everyone does. Scarborough getting exactly what they want means someone else does not. I'm not even going to comment not he nonsense 7-stop subway remark. A nice dream, sure. But impossible.

"If you don't get it you never will. "

Funny, I was thinking the same about you.

Happy Canada Day, though.

First of all I never said the left is Evil. They have a Downtown cetntric Political agenda that's heavily promoted thru the media using slant trumpeting the greatness of their preferred transfer laden transit plan that doesn't consider fair integration of its largest suburb. The Provincial Left like all Political parties have its own warts but its obviously not the same ilk as the a Downtown left which has been on a relentless one sided media assault to promote the LRT hack job. Clearly it resonates with those in transit rich areas.

Second, You are correct. But for the most part these issues are unique. Although we should certainly make sure we don't segregate large areas on a separate network or force transfers after a couple KM of subway in the same direction. Its disgusting. You can justify transfers just not these ones. If we need more money for the DRL and our integrated suburban network than so be it. Anything less is not acceptable to anyone but those who believe their land was created with Subway's by the Gods, the same criteria being used against SCC & not BS Politics weren't part of the equation.

I guess third....LOL @ Surface subway Impossible? Why? Politically Maybe...But at a high level all we really need a bit of standard engineering design, a bit more concrete & some unused land slivers to be acquired. This is far from rocket science but too intelligent for most Politicians to explore atleast conceptually in cost. But again its transfer LRT to SCC or nothing to you.

Who cares its Scarborough right?
 
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