Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[44 North]

This is obscene.


The cheapest option has always been the best...........fix the SRT and extend it.

A couple hundred million to redo the tracks and extend the station lengths to 100 meters, build a new station at Danforth for better connection, and straighten out the sharp curve near Elsmere {although with the new articulated Innovia RT trains I don't even know that is even needed} and then extend the line.

For this kind of money they could extend the RT all the way downtown using the rail corridor at grade and elevated/underground when necessary. Show the Scarburians a mock up of a 100 meter new SkyTrain cars so that they know that they are not even remotely similar to the crates they are riding now. Tell them they can have service every 2 or 3 minutes with big modern trains, and instead of having to still transfer at Danforth and again at Yonge, they could have subway service from STC to downtown at a TTC fare.

If we do decide to upgrade the SRT with improved rolling stock as per the original pre-TC plan, I think Bombardier should be excluded from bidding. And that we should steer clear from using proprietary things like LIM. There are a number of manufacturers that can build a train with the specs required, using standard third rail or catenary, and which can convert the decrepit SRT into a subway-like line capable of 20-25k pphpd. Probably faster, for less money, and more reliably than Bombardier.

Yes, obviously one exists and the other doesn't. In both cases we're talking about what the future MIGHT hold.

But I've seen you comment on NYCC enough that I know even you will admit that Scarborough - AT BEST - is a mixed success. A fair person would probably say it has failed in its aims. If you go there and then to Yonge/Empress, the difference between a (relatively) successful, TOD centre and one that's basically a mall, an isolated civic centre and a bunch of towers is pretty stark.

Also, rather significantly, it has achieved this modest failure with existing RT. Yes, it needs to replaced, which is where a lot of this discussion is starting, but it's a pretty sad showing given what they already have. Given the rate towers are going up in VMC, pre-subway, it won't take them long to catch up.

As you know, I believe times have changed and lessons have been learned and there is no reason to think VMC cannot achieve its goals, at least to a degree and probably a greater degree than Scarborough has to date. The city's own planning documents show, in black and white, that they forsee no residential intensification and very little commercial intensification for Scarborough. We are replacing the existing line and serving what's there and, despite Duguid and others touting a fast-growing centre, not much else. And not only is it replacing the SRT, it's replacing a fully-funded LRT plan that was arguably more appropriate and more extensive, for a one-stop subway at greater cost. It's salt in the wound.

Oh, maybe they'll update their secondary plan just yet but I don't get why they had to wait. York Region, Vaughan, Markham and RH didn't. They were offered RT and got out in front of the ball. It's fine to be cynical or skeptical about how it will turn out but at a political and planning level they have schooled Toronto here.

At the end of the day, the projects are too different for any real tangible comparison but lots of people are citing it as another waste of money, like Vaughan. If you think Vaughan is a waste of money and subway to nowhere, I don't see how you can be any less upset about Scarborough. But even if you think Vaughan is a good idea, there's still reason to look askance at Scarborough.

It would be easier to take seriously if Tory et al seemed even somewhat perturbed by the ridership and cost projections but they literally seem like they don't care, since it's a fait accompli. The process should trouble people as much as, or even more than what the result might turn out to be 20 years from now.

York Region never schooled Toronto on anything, doubt they ever will. Nor are they more transit-oriented, better at smart growth, more urban, or whatever claim you've made before. You said there's no development at Scarb Centre, "ZERO" to be correct. That's not true. But I fully agree and am well aware SCC was not a success as envisioned, no arguments there. But I also agree that the very same fate is possible for VMC (yes, even with a subway). I can read all the puffery and self-congratulatory claims in the world, but this isn't 2008 anymore and I no longer believe them the way I used to.

For all SCC's faults, I think it will put VMC to shame. Obviously that's my opinion, but just the absolute massiveness of industrial area it's plonked in makes the older area around SCC look downright urban in comparison; roadways are spec'd to this massiveness; nearest residents are 2km away with few or any sidewalks; current ped/cycle counts for Jane/7 are virtually nonexistent; existing transit usage very low; the decision to keep transmission lines along 7 to save a few $Mil; lack of major civic buildings or general centre anchors...

Then there are other issues that cause skepticism. How many farm fields is Scarb paving over? How many auto-centric subdivisions are they building? How many hectares of protected or environmentally-sensitive Greenbelt are Scarb pols trying to redesginate for more outward growth? I notice you've brought up TO's decision to improve 2km of the Gardiner as why our city is non-urban and dysfunctional, but seldom do I hear about York Region pushing for a 427 extension or 413. Or that they've pressed Mlinx to extend Line 1 up to Wonderland.

tl;dr I'm not a supporter of SSE, and frequently tout the benefits of subway alternatives that offer similar service and capacity (but w/ lower per km costs)...much like the SRT/S(L)RT. But I grasp the politics behind the SSE decision, know that it had considerable local demand, and believe that previous precedents like tunneling to an undeveloped VMC caused people to wonder why something similar couldn't be built to a developed and transit-using SCC.

What I find odd in the anti-SSE debate however is that many supportive of a mode like the SRT/S(L)RT only support it when it's in Scarboro. The mere mention of building something similar elsewhere brings insults, derision, cries that such a mode is insufficient (particularly when connecting a UGC), that trains can't operate in snow, that it hinders development, that transfers are unjustifiable, or that fully grade-separated light rail lines simply don't exist. If these points are believed to be true, then by default wouldn't these same people fully support SSE?

 

[APTA-2048]

If we do decide to upgrade the SRT with improved rolling stock as per the original pre-TC plan, I think Bombardier should be excluded from bidding. And that we should steer clear from using proprietary things like LIM. There are a number of manufacturers that can build a train with the specs required, using standard third rail or catenary, and which can convert the decrepit SRT into a subway-like line capable of 20-25k pphpd. Probably faster, for less money, and more reliably than Bombardier.



York Region never schooled Toronto on anything, doubt they ever will. Nor are they more transit-oriented, better at smart growth, more urban, or whatever claim you've made before. You said there's no development at Scarb Centre, "ZERO" to be correct. That's not true. But I fully agree and am well aware SCC was not a success as envisioned, no arguments there. But I also agree that the very same fate is possible for VMC (yes, even with a subway). I can read all the puffery and self-congratulatory claims in the world, but this isn't 2008 anymore and I no longer believe them the way I used to.

For all SCC's faults, I think it will put VMC to shame. Obviously that's my opinion, but just the absolute massiveness of industrial area it's plonked in makes the older area around SCC look downright urban in comparison; roadways are spec'd to this massiveness; nearest residents are 2km away with few or any sidewalks; current ped/cycle counts for Jane/7 are virtually nonexistent; existing transit usage very low; the decision to keep transmission lines along 7 to save a few $Mil; lack of major civic buildings or general centre anchors...

Then there are other issues that cause skepticism. How many farm fields is Scarb paving over? How many auto-centric subdivisions are they building? How many hectares of protected or environmentally-sensitive Greenbelt are Scarb pols trying to redesginate for more outward growth? I notice you've brought up TO's decision to improve 2km of the Gardiner as why our city is non-urban and dysfunctional, but seldom do I hear about York Region pushing for a 427 extension or 413. Or that they've pressed Mlinx to extend Line 1 up to Wonderland.

tl;dr I'm not a supporter of SSE, and frequently tout the benefits of subway alternatives that offer similar service and capacity (but w/ lower per km costs)...much like the SRT/S(L)RT. But I grasp the politics behind the SSE decision, know that it had considerable local demand, and believe that previous precedents like tunneling to an undeveloped VMC caused people to wonder why something similar couldn't be built to a developed and transit-using SCC.

What I find odd in the anti-SSE debate however is that many supportive of a mode like the SRT/S(L)RT only support it when it's in Scarboro. The mere mention of building something similar elsewhere brings insults, derision, cries that such a mode is insufficient (particularly when connecting a UGC), that trains can't operate in snow, that it hinders development, that transfers are unjustifiable, or that fully grade-separated light rail lines simply don't exist. If these points are believed to be true, then by default wouldn't these same people fully support SSE?

Seems to me, the majority who support the Scarborough LRT also support the Finch West LRT, Waterfront LRT, Jane LRT, Hurontario LRT. Or are all those projects being built in Scarborough?

 

[Juan_Lennon416]

Funny..if the Scarborough LRT project was 3x over budget, most of you would respond with a 'meh'

 

[44 North]

Seems to me, the majority who support the Scarborough LRT also support the Finch West LRT, Waterfront LRT, Jane LRT, Hurontario LRT. Or are all those projects being built in Scarborough?

Fair enough. But when I meant a mode like the SRT/SLRT I more meant a line that shares attributes of the current SRT and future SLRT. In other words a line that's fully grade-separated, and which may use a significant portion of elevated infrastructure. The four lines you mention are tram-style; have lower speed/reliability/capacity; and ultimately differ quite considerably from what the TTC originally planned for the line 35 years ago, what exists now, and the Transit City-era SLRT plans.

 

[ssiguy2]

The SkyTrain is not proprietary and also remember that renewing and extending the RT would not require a whole new control/garage/maintenance but simply a larger area to put the more and longer trains. What's more by doing this the station expansions and track replacement construction would still allow the SRT to keep running as they can do the stations during the day and the track late-night and on weekends.

The SkyTrain was always the best option and still is.

 

[APTA-2048]

Fair enough. But when I meant a mode like the SRT/SLRT I more meant a line that shares attributes of the current SRT and future SLRT. In other words a line that's fully grade-separated, and which may use a significant portion of elevated infrastructure. The four lines you mention are tram-style; have lower speed/reliability/capacity; and ultimately differ quite considerably from what the TTC originally planned for the line 35 years ago, what exists now, and the Transit City-era SLRT plans.

I see what you mean. I will admit I don't know of any proposed LRT lines that are completely grade separated or partly elevated like the SRT.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

York Region never schooled Toronto on anything, doubt they ever will. Nor are they more transit-oriented, better at smart growth, more urban, or whatever claim you've made before.

You obviously haven't been watching Toronto council the past few years, but whatever.
I'll make sure to meditate on that while riding Viva, the funding for which was received at the same time as Transit City. How's the city's bike plan coming along, by the way?

You said there's no development at Scarb Centre, "ZERO" to be correct. That's not true.

You're right - it's not true that I said that. go and read back - per the city's own planning documents, ZERO new residential units are PLANNED and not very much commercial. Obviously there is development there. That city document has been reproduced all over the place.

Obviously the same fate is possible at VMC - it could, I am quite happy to concede, end up being a failed suburban centre - but it's off to a decent start and it's growing in a different policy context, real estate market etc. compared to SCC. It's not puffery, just fingers-crossed optimism. It's easy to see the glass empty, if that's your point. Unlike you, I'll wait til the subway opens and give it a few years before calling it DOA, however.

Maybe you're right SCC will put it to shame, but it's stagnated so far and even if you support this subway, you can't argue the planning has been less than a debacle. So, if we're looking at half-full glasses, I'm calling it a draw at best, future-prediction-wise. VMC at least has the advantage of a virtual blank slate. That has cons too, but Scarborough has decades of poor planning and inertia to undo first.

I can't believe you brought up your Line 1 to Wonderland thing again. Especially as evidence as their lack of commitment to TOD but we've been over that so I'll just leave it there and let you know I am literally smiling wryly as I type this. I'll only point out that York Region, through multiple successive councils, has been 100% consistent in its transit planning for over 10 years, and it's transit-related planning. Toronto council can't even make that claim for the past 6 months. That's what I mean by schooled.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

How does every topic on this forum turn into a debate about York Region?

 

[44 North]

I see what you mean. I will admit I don't know of any proposed LRT lines that are completely grade separated or partly elevated like the SRT.

That's one of the cool things about it: it is pretty unique for the GTHA. And whether it uses Flexity Freedom vehicles or coupled CLRVs, I think calling "LRT" is a bit of an injustice - considering the line has much of the attributes of a subway (and very few of typical LRT). IMO at least. There was a point in time where this type of grade-separated light rail system was viewed as Toronto's answer to the high cost of conventional subway-building. It was to carry loads similar to subway, offer service identical to a subway, and connect the city and suburbs just as heavy rail subways had done before - but much more affordably. And it wasn't just Metro/TTC that thought this, but the Prov, and other cities around the globe.

The sad irony though is that because it's the only line of its kind in the GTHA, it's viewed as an anomaly. And although subways have only risen in price beyond what anyone in the 70s or 80s could've ever imagined, we seem to have selectively forgotten that there are alternatives that fit the niche between tram-style LRT and 6-car heavy rail subways.

If you're ever interested in the topic of this type of light rail mode I'd suggest reading up on London's DLR. Or riding it if you're ever there. It had its kinks, and was arguably underbuilt at first. But since its inception it's grown considerably and has helped connect parts of the city in ways a tram or underground never could.

 

[BurlOak]

That's indeed correct. That's where the original ridership figure came from. Riders from northern Scarborough converging into the extension at Sheppard while those on Lawrence East would use that one. The 14,000 figure did justify the subway to be extended there, without Smarttrack competing with it.

1-The MOU of merging Eglinton and the SRT looks even better now in retrospect even by burying the line between Don Mills and Kennedy (although elevation would have been perfect). That deal was killed for the wrong reasons...mainly out of spite for the messenger, who had accepted LRT in the SRT corridor and had Scarborough residents finally buy into LRT.

2-You know what made even more sense? Retrofitting the SRT to accommodate the new Skytrain vehicles...those being used by Vancouver and that Montreal is about to use on their brand new line. We could have had that for a fraction of the cost but hey...someone else killed the TTC plan and wanted his own legacy at a higher cost in its place...Transit City

3-Once the option 1 and 2 were finally thrown out the window when the province took control of the file and killed LRT for good, the pricier 3 stop subway was the best we could have received to finally end this farce.

4-But hey, why stop there? Another clown comes along with his Smarttrack fantasy and derails yet again the whole thing by transforming Scarborough Subway into a white elephant by artificially reducing it's ridership and stealing some of it for his pet project...

This is the worse political transit mess I've ever seen...

Now I'm pissed off and my councillor will hear an earful

Interesting that Miller killed the retrofit (#2), Council killed the merged line (#1), with backroom Liberal help. The Liberals and Council killed the LRT (#3) and Tory stripped riders from the SSE (#4).

Rob Ford was the best transit planning politician in the past 15 years.

To me the almost criminal aspect was how the Provincial Liberals through Metrolinx commissioned the study that found that the merged Eglinton / SRT had the best cost benefit results. The Liberals hid this report for 18 months (until finally uncovered by Michael Schabas in December 2013) while their subway champion won the by-election, and more importantly while Toronto Council was debating what route to select. How could the Liberals not be fully liable for all cost over-runs for this blatant political tactic.

The SkyTrain is not proprietary and also remember that renewing and extending the RT would not require a whole new control/garage/maintenance but simply a larger area to put the more and longer trains. What's more by doing this the station expansions and track replacement construction would still allow the SRT to keep running as they can do the stations during the day and the track late-night and on weekends.

The SkyTrain was always the best option and still is.

The sad thing is, this is true. It shows how much better this would have been from the start. What is needed:

1. Tear up a few hundred metres of tunnel near the Brentcliffe portal and relocate the tunnel to the south side.
2. Run on south side on new bridge over the Don River, past Leslie, and CPR.
3. Grade separate from DVP to Kennedy
4. Connect Eglinton to SRT
5. Change the train order from LRT to SkyTrain.
6. Pay premium to Contractor for change

And even more depressing is that, once again, the reason the right thing will not be done is because the Scarborough Liberals want the subway - even if 1 stop.

 

[Rainforest]

When certain people jeer about the escalating costs of SSE and enjoy themselves, I am trying to imagine how they will react to the future DRL cost escalations.

The central section of DRL will have to deal with both the water table issues and the existing utility lines, resulting in a high risk of cost escalation.

 

[Rainforest]

Although a subway extension into Scarborough is a necessity, a 6-km long tunnel with no intermediate stops that costs almost $3 billion does not sound like the right option.

When the SSE route was debated back in 2013, the cost projection was $1.8 billion for the "surface" option using the SRT corridor, vs about $2.5 billion for 3-stop subway tunneled under McCowan. Based on those number, the McCowan route was deemed perferable, as it serves the hospital and reaches north of 401.

Three yeas later, the number of new stations is down to one while the cost projection went up. If so, then the "surface" alternative must be revisited.

The surface option must not cost dramatically more than the LRT plan. Yes, a new Kennedy station will be needed, as well as wider turning radii, stronger columns, and lonber platforms at STC. But fundamentally, either the subway or the LRT are rail lines in a fully grade-separated right-of-way.

 

[Palma]

I don't know why people talk about the line to Vaughan as if the only reason they built it is to connect Toronto to Vaughan. The main reason was to connect to York U. The extra two stops are gravy and certainly didn't cost $3 billion to build. I had no problem extending to Vaughan if that meant York U was finally connected.

then they could have stopped it at York, The intention was to link up Vaughan to Toronto and downtown where people could pay a flat fare

 

[coffey1]

Fair enough. But when I meant a mode like the SRT/SLRT I more meant a line that shares attributes of the current SRT and future SLRT. In other words a line that's fully grade-separated, and which may use a significant portion of elevated infrastructure. The four lines you mention are tram-style; have lower speed/reliability/capacity; and ultimately differ quite considerably from what the TTC originally planned for the line 35 years ago, what exists now, and the Transit City-era SLRT plans.

Do those other LRT lines go from residential areas into industrial wastelands? Aside from buses do they force transfer to a different technology after a short stretch headed in the same direction?

As you mention there are some benefits to using that RT corridor as for speed and reliability.

I would have hoped a subway could have been design above ground through that corridor as it would alleviate the biggest issue of a transfer & still deliver stops to the East and North East. I imagine for the current price tag of the one stop SSE and challenges preventing this option from moving forward could be overcome and help bring transit to Sheppard.

A subway to Lawrence, STC, Centennial College, Markham/Milner along with a full Eglinton LRT to UTSC & a Sheppard LRT at some point would be the best care and the only poorly integrated transfer on the Sheppard LRT to the Stub would be much less of a problem connected to the Eglinton LRT line and having a subway stop along the route would be a respectful plan for Scarborough

 

[bill r]

Can we channel the expertise in this forum to work on SmartTrack 2.0?

SmartTrack 2.0


Convert the Stouffville line to EMU with 3-4 minute headways. The route goes along the Lakeshore (4th track installed), then at Gerrard and Pape we go down the DRL tunnel, switching the DRL technology to EMU as well. The Crosstown under Queen is now EMU avoiding all the Union Station issues. There are suggests to curve to run under King or Wellington for greater functionality. Either way, we meet up with the UPX, which we then salvage by converting it to EMU and add a few more stations and serve west Toronto. With the DRL now underground EMU we go up Pape, build a couple of bridges across the Don Valley and then up Don Mills Road.


The Don Mills/Stouffville tunnel would be triple track.

A less effective alternative would be to merge the two lines together, the outside track requiring a flying junction. The most effective method is to use 4 tracks.

The cheapest would to terminate one line at Pape and Gerrard and continue in town with the other line, not sure riders would go for it.

Apparently the triple track function doesn’t work well in New York because the return track can’t handle the load of two tracks. Maybe using station bypasses to let trains pass each other to help move trains out of the tunnel on the middle track. The idea is to have both dedicated tracks inbound in the morning and outbound for the evening. At some point after the morning rush hour all trains on both lines have to pull into a station and all crews have to reverse direction. Both lines require signals in both directions. You can tell, I don’t have transit knowledge.


This idea is for brainstorming. The idea is to get Metrolinx to work on a digestible project where they can gain experience with PTC and EMU’s. It would be easy on Stouffville and UPX. Toronto needs both crosstown and RL (DRL) so it would be a good connector. We can isolate all the Union Station issues.

http://urbantoronto.ca/forum/threads/transit-fantasy-maps.3005/page-292#post-1109076