What do other diverse cities worldwide think of Toronto's claim to be "the most multicultural city"?

[wild goose chase]

Since we make it a big talking point (even like that claim that the UN recognized our city as #1, which turns out to be a myth) but there are other cities (in the US and elsewhere) that think they are the most multicultural too...

Do you think we are on their radar? Do cities like New York, London, Los Angeles, Sydney etc. see us (and each other) as peers among a group of comparatively diverse cities?

Is our diversity recognized globally or just something that we ourselves are self-congratulatory on?

 

[King of Kensington]

I don't think they care. The claim seems desperate. NYC is diverse, L.A. is diverse, London is diverse, Paris is diverse.

 

[Armour]

Since we make it a big talking point (even like that claim that the UN recognized our city as #1, which turns out to be a myth) but there are other cities (in the US and elsewhere) that think they are the most multicultural too...

Do you think we are on their radar? Do cities like New York, London, Los Angeles, Sydney etc. see us (and each other) as peers among a group of comparatively diverse cities?

Is our diversity recognized globally or just something that we ourselves are self-congratulatory on?

I have no idea; but why does it matter? Why do so many people think diversity is such a great thing? Our official motto is: Diversity is Our Strength; but it is such a vague proclamation (where's the evidence?) and rather force-fed. If anything, I think diversity separates people, rather than uniting them. People are tribal by nature and tend to stick to their own kind. If diversity is our strength, why are we more divided than ever? What commonality is there to bring people together when we don't share the same religious beliefs, culture, language, ideology, etc.? What makes a city/nation strong is its people; not the colour of their skin or the variance in cultural practices. Japan has a strong culture, while being completely devoid of ethnic diversity.

 

[wild goose chase]

I actually think that New York city is still perceived by more people around the world as probably the most diverse, as it has been known as an immigration hub for much longer and developed a reputation as such.

Toronto is smaller as a city and has a less distinctive identity so probably people are less aware of its demographics. I think (maybe this is just anecdotal evidence) some people still perceive Canadians as being not as yet diverse as Americans, probably because diverse races among Americans are more well-known and are seen in media worldwide than Canadians.

 

[wild goose chase]

I have no idea; but why does it matter? Why do so many people think diversity is such a great thing? Our official motto is: Diversity is Our Strength; but it is such a vague proclamation (where's the evidence?) and rather force-fed. If anything, I think diversity separates people, rather than uniting them. People are tribal by nature and tend to stick to their own kind. If diversity is our strength, why are we more divided than ever? What commonality is there to bring people together when we don't share the same religious beliefs, culture, language, ideology, etc.? What makes a city/nation strong is its people; not the colour of their skin or the variance in cultural practices. Japan has a strong culture, while being completely devoid of ethnic diversity.

Well, the United States as a nation of immigrants, has nonetheless a strong culture and identity, and arguably is the most influential culture worldwide (in mass media, movies, even politics as can be seen by the fact that everyone it seems is following news of their elections etc.). Obviously it has problems like racial and economic inequality, but say, an African-American, Italian-American, Chinese-American still are for the most part, unified and strongly identify as Americans first.

Sometimes as a Canadian living stateside, I actually wish we Canadians could have a stronger identity (but one that includes diverse Canadians of all races), like our southern neighbours do.

New York city is a great example of a city that has a proud and strong identity despite its diversity -- there are many things that seem to bind its citizens of many backgrounds, at least those who grew up there, together with a local identity.

 

[Armour]

Well, the United States as a nation of immigrants, has nonetheless a strong culture and identity, and arguably is the most influential culture worldwide (in mass media, movies, even politics as can be seen by the fact that everyone it seems is following news of their elections etc.). Obviously it has problems like racial and economic inequality, but say, an African-American, Italian-American, Chinese-American still are for the most part, unified and strongly identify as Americans first.

Sometimes as a Canadian living stateside, I actually wish we Canadians could have a stronger identity (but one that includes diverse Canadians of all races), like our southern neighbours do.

New York city is a great example of a city that has a proud and strong identity despite its diversity -- there are many things that seem to bind its citizens of many backgrounds, at least those who grew up there, together with a local identity.

Every country is a nation of immigrants. We all came from another place, at some point in time.

American is also a lot more divided than Canada. Blacks live among blacks; whites among whites, etc. Here, our neighbourhoods are more mixed, both ethnically and socially.

How can we have a strong identity when we're so different from one another? 50 years ago, this country had a strong identity; but it was one of white, European heritage (something that was apparently so bad). It's not possible to be strongly linked when various cultures are thrown together. People differ from culture to culture and may be able to agree on certain things, but overall, multiculturalism doesn't work well. We merely tolerate each other. How much common ground is a white person from North Bay going to have with someone that grew up in the deserts of the middle east? Their experiences and influences are going to be so different.

New York's identity was established well before it was a very diverse place. I don't think New Yorkers are binded by the array of cultures that dwell within the city, but rather the sheer electricity of the city. It's full of art, entertainment and beauty and that is something that is universally attractive.

 

[prosperegal]

Every country is a nation of immigrants. We all came from another place, at some point in time.

American is also a lot more divided than Canada. Blacks live among blacks; whites among whites, etc. Here, our neighbourhoods are more mixed, both ethnically and socially.

How can we have a strong identity when we're so different from one another? 50 years ago, this country had a strong identity; but it was one of white, European heritage (something that was apparently so bad). It's not possible to be strongly linked when various cultures are thrown together. People differ from culture to culture and may be able to agree on certain things, but overall, multiculturalism doesn't work well. We merely tolerate each other. How much common ground is a white person from North Bay going to have with someone that grew up in the deserts of the middle east? Their experiences and influences are going to be so different.

New York's identity was established well before it was a very diverse place. I don't think New Yorkers are binded by the array of cultures that dwell within the city, but rather the sheer electricity of the city. It's full of art, entertainment and beauty and that is something that is universally attractive.

ARE our neighbourhoods more "mixed?" And if they are, do we REALLY look like those old Benetton ads? The neighbourhood I lived in back in the 80s was mostly Jewish, Cantonese and Indian. I don't recall seeing black people other than Jamaican nannies. The public school I attended for JK and SK was overwhelmingly Jewish and there were maybe two or three black kids, total. The Catholic school I later attended was more diverse (Italian, Irish, German, Polish, Chinese, Korean, Indian and a very small handful of black kids). And we never hung out together (but then again, no one did, regardless of culture). I think I played with only a very small handful of kids on that street (though everyone was always very generous at Halloween...I always had to go home half way to dump my candy out because my bag was already full!). I was at a private school by the middle grades, one not in our immediate area. It was kind of segregated as well - Chinese kids hung out with Chinese kids, white kids with white kids, South Asian kids with South Asian kids.

 

[wild goose chase]

ARE our neighbourhoods more "mixed?" And if they are, do we REALLY look like those old Benetton ads? The neighbourhood I lived in back in the 80s was mostly Jewish, Cantonese and Indian. I don't recall seeing black people other than Jamaican nannies. The public school I attended for JK and SK was overwhelmingly Jewish and there were maybe two or three black kids, total. The Catholic school I later attended was more diverse (Italian, Irish, German, Polish, Chinese, Korean, Indian and a very small handful of black kids). And we never hung out together (but then again, no one did, regardless of culture). I think I played with only a very small handful of kids on that street (though everyone was always very generous at Halloween...I always had to go home half way to dump my candy out because my bag was already full!). I was at a private school by the middle grades, one not in our immediate area. It was kind of segregated as well - Chinese kids hung out with Chinese kids, white kids with white kids, South Asian kids with South Asian kids.

Even though obviously there are many clustered ethnic enclaves in Toronto, the scale of the segregation is still not like the black-white segregation in some US cities like the South side of Chicago. For example, even though Torontonian kids may hang out with kids of the same race at recess, we still don't have many schools that serve a community where the locals are of only one race. Even the white and East or South Asian neighbourhoods in Toronto often don't have 90-95% of one race like they do in some African-American neighbourhoods stateside.

Also our segregation is less associated with poverty (in Toronto, it seems like more people cluster together by choice because of cultural ties -- many first-generation immigrants may live in enclaves but their kids integrate fine and won't necessarily still stay segregated). Unlike many American cities, our poorer neighbourhoods like Jane-Finch and the former Regent Park aren't and weren't dominated by any single race and include poor Asian, European, Caribbean, African, and Middle Eastern people etc. including recent immigrants, refugees etc. The US has more racial separation going back generations because of its history (where minorities may still have lived in the segregated areas their parents did or back when they were legally prevented from living places in the city), while I think Toronto's is more because of new immigration, not multi-generational segregation.

I've known someone who grew up in Scarborough who found the level of racial segregation shocking even in cities in California, which still are relatively not as segregated as East coast/Midwestern American cities.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-35255835

 

[King of Kensington]

Indeed:

http://www.lib.uchicago.edu/e/collections/maps/ethniccity2000.html

http://www.usa.com/rank/illinois-st...tract-rank.htm?hl=IL031390400&hlst=IL&yr=9000

 

[Armour]

Even though obviously there are many clustered ethnic enclaves in Toronto, the scale of the segregation is still not like the black-white segregation in some US cities like the South side of Chicago. For example, even though Torontonian kids may hang out with kids of the same race at recess, we still don't have many schools that serve a community where the locals are of only one race. Even the white and East or South Asian neighbourhoods in Toronto often don't have 90-95% of one race like they do in some African-American neighbourhoods stateside.

Also our segregation is less associated with poverty (in Toronto, it seems like more people cluster together by choice because of cultural ties -- many first-generation immigrants may live in enclaves but their kids integrate fine and won't necessarily still stay segregated). Unlike many American cities, our poorer neighbourhoods like Jane-Finch and the former Regent Park aren't and weren't dominated by any single race and include poor Asian, European, Caribbean, African, and Middle Eastern people etc. including recent immigrants, refugees etc. The US has more racial separation going back generations because of its history (where minorities may still have lived in the segregated areas their parents did or back when they were legally prevented from living places in the city), while I think Toronto's is more because of new immigration, not multi-generational segregation.

I've known someone who grew up in Scarborough who found the level of racial segregation shocking even in cities in California, which still are relatively not as segregated as East coast/Midwestern American cities.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-35255835

Thorncliffe Park Public School has an almost exclusive Southeast Asian enrollment.

 

[King of Kensington]

That's one public school in one neighborhood, not at all comparable to Chicago.

And it's mostly South Asian not Southeast Asian.

 

[wild goose chase]

In Chicago, there's basically a huge racial inequality in public education that's unlike anything at all in Toronto, with many more white families than black families in Chicago enrolling their kids in schools outside the public school system, often more expensive private or selective schools.

About half of the white kids go elsewhere for schooling while most black kids attend public school.

http://www.wbez.org/series/curious-city/why-so-few-white-kids-land-cps-—-and-why-it-matters-111094

 

[prosperegal]

In Chicago, there's basically a huge racial inequality in public education that's unlike anything at all in Toronto, with many more white families than black families in Chicago enrolling their kids in schools outside the public school system, often more expensive private or selective schools.

About half of the white kids go elsewhere for schooling while most black kids attend public school.

http://www.wbez.org/series/curious-city/why-so-few-white-kids-land-cps-—-and-why-it-matters-111094

Yeah, but Chicago (and the US, in general), doesn't have a separate (Catholic) school system. And it's kind of like saying how minorities/new Canadians are less likely to enroll their kids in, say, French Immersion than white/multigeneration parents here in Canada (or in the GTA, anyway).

 

[Skeezix]

Does Toronto, or Torontonians, even claim to be the most multicultural city in the world?

I believe the whole "UNESCO says we are the most diverse" thing originated in a City press release, based on a mistaken interpretation of something or other, but that was literally decades ago. Years before amalgamation.

I don't typically hear the "most multicultural" claim. I do hear the "one of the world's most multicultural cities", which is true (depending on what one considers to be multicultural and whether one includes waves of refugees or not).

Roughly ten years or so ago, the UN did announce in a survey that Toronto had the second largest percentage of foreign-born population among major world cities, second only to Miami (whose foreign-born population is largely of Cuban and Latin American descent). % of foreign-born isn't necessarily the same thing as diverse or multicultural - it's just an interesting fact.

 

[wild goose chase]

Roughly ten years or so ago, the UN did announce in a survey that Toronto had the second largest percentage of foreign-born population among major world cities, second only to Miami (whose foreign-born population is largely of Cuban and Latin American descent). % of foreign-born isn't necessarily the same thing as diverse or multicultural - it's just an interesting fact.

Apparently, Dubai has 83% foreign born and Brussels 62%, as of the stats from a couple of years ago. So those cities are ahead of us now.
But I know that Dubai's foreign born are often not citizens but temporary workers (unlike North American and even European cities where the foreign born tend to be immigrants who take up citizenship and settle long-term).

http://www.khaleejtimes.com/nation/dubai/dubai-most-cosmopolitan-city-in-the-world

 

[Skeezix]

Apparently, Dubai has 83% foreign born and Brussels 62%, as of the stats from a couple of years ago. So those cities are ahead of us now.
But I know that Dubai's foreign born are often not citizens but temporary workers (unlike North American and even European cities where the foreign born tend to be immigrants who take up citizenship and settle long-term).

http://www.khaleejtimes.com/nation/dubai/dubai-most-cosmopolitan-city-in-the-world

Those numbers didn't jump ahead in the 5-8 years between surveys, so obviously some different methodology. I'm guessing, first off, that the UN was not counting temporary workers (similarly, it didn't count refugees IRCC). It might have only counted citizens, which may be the issue with Brussels. I'll see if I can find the UN report.