DarnDirtyApe
Active Member
Maybe even DMW would start taking the subway to work...
Toronto Ontario Line 3 | ?m | ?s
- Thread starter JasonParis
- Start date
drum118
Superstar
The ridership between Queen-East and King-Young cannot support a station regardless what technology you use. The only location a station could be built depending on the alignment south of Queen would be Cherry St since it plan to connect to the waterfront at some future date as well the Distillery District/others.
Since this line will be underground, you are better off looking at a metro system than LRT and that a change for me. Trains start off as X cars and expand as needed. You have 3 tracks in place of 2 for express tracks.
After seeing what Zürich was doing in 2012 and what Metrolinx has looked at, I would go to a 5 car DD EMU that can increase in length as needed and has the availability to interchange with RH line as well going to Steeles/hwy 7. I would take the line west to interchange with the Lakeshore line at Roncesvalles with only 2/3 stations on that section. It could also be the west leg going up Jane St.
As for moving from LRT to metro has to do with ridership loads. Don Mills which I supported as part of Transit City plan when it first came out started to change as I review my Regional plan as well seeing first hand on my 12 trip to Europe what was taking place there. I have said in the past, you could move close to 35% existing ridership off the Young Line once this line went into service going to Steeles. Given what is plan for Don Mills as well along major cross roads within a mile or 2 of it, ridership is going to spike higher than what an LRT will be able to carry in the long run.
When I first drew my Regional Plan in 2006, haven't seen any plans pertaining to Toronto or elsewhere to the point I came up with a U line running along Queen and going north on Jane to hwy 7 and Markham Rd to hwy 7. Found out later that had been looked at with different roads being used.
By having this line, you are offering everyone a faster and shorter ride to get them to/from where they want to go in the first place.
Since this line will be underground, you are better off looking at a metro system than LRT and that a change for me. Trains start off as X cars and expand as needed. You have 3 tracks in place of 2 for express tracks.
After seeing what Zürich was doing in 2012 and what Metrolinx has looked at, I would go to a 5 car DD EMU that can increase in length as needed and has the availability to interchange with RH line as well going to Steeles/hwy 7. I would take the line west to interchange with the Lakeshore line at Roncesvalles with only 2/3 stations on that section. It could also be the west leg going up Jane St.
As for moving from LRT to metro has to do with ridership loads. Don Mills which I supported as part of Transit City plan when it first came out started to change as I review my Regional plan as well seeing first hand on my 12 trip to Europe what was taking place there. I have said in the past, you could move close to 35% existing ridership off the Young Line once this line went into service going to Steeles. Given what is plan for Don Mills as well along major cross roads within a mile or 2 of it, ridership is going to spike higher than what an LRT will be able to carry in the long run.
When I first drew my Regional Plan in 2006, haven't seen any plans pertaining to Toronto or elsewhere to the point I came up with a U line running along Queen and going north on Jane to hwy 7 and Markham Rd to hwy 7. Found out later that had been looked at with different roads being used.
By having this line, you are offering everyone a faster and shorter ride to get them to/from where they want to go in the first place.
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
Is there any hope of LONG making it to Council? It would be nice to have them at least acknowledge and begin studying the proposal, to get the ball rolling.
Ideally LONG would be approved for study when Council meets in fall, so construction on LONG can begin not too long after SHORT. Of course LONG construction would be contingent on about 4 Billion in funding, but it's important to get the ball rolling now so we can be ready to go once (if) funding arrives.
Ideally LONG would be approved for study when Council meets in fall, so construction on LONG can begin not too long after SHORT. Of course LONG construction would be contingent on about 4 Billion in funding, but it's important to get the ball rolling now so we can be ready to go once (if) funding arrives.
WislaHD
Superstar
The developers would love the DRL long option as well. If they thought the land around Sheppard was great for development, just wait till there is a subway under Lawrence-Don Mills and Eglinton-Don Mills.
The condo boom at the Shops at Don Mills area is just beginning and to the south, between Leslie, DVP/Wynford Drive, Barber Green/Greenbelt and Eglinton (as well as SE and SW corners of Don Mills-Eglinton) there is a whole ton of big box stores, business parks, offices and brownfield sites that are not performing well and would be ripe for development.
The condo boom at the Shops at Don Mills area is just beginning and to the south, between Leslie, DVP/Wynford Drive, Barber Green/Greenbelt and Eglinton (as well as SE and SW corners of Don Mills-Eglinton) there is a whole ton of big box stores, business parks, offices and brownfield sites that are not performing well and would be ripe for development.
44 North
Senior Member
It was duly noted in the final report, but nowhere to be found in the preceding plans, drafts, or MoveOntario2020. When a RL finally was included in the final Big Move rtp, it was #48 - to be completed long after problematic projects like Yonge North, and I guess Jane LRT and DMLRT. It was only recently the project got bumped up to the 15yr timeframe - with the caveat from Pritchard that relief may involve buses.
My somewhat pessimistic view on the Big Move is that at its heart, it's really a grouping of election promises and politically palatable projects carried over from MO2020. And rather than taking a holistic approach, or going back to the drawing board to consider glaring issues (e.g Yonge's capacity) - many of the (somewhat iffy) projects in the Big Move were further fortified with funny math and fanciful plans about Mobility Hubs, "centres", future development trends that are hard to predict, modal shares (even harder to predict), and climate change. That it took the TTC's CEO, with the help of Toronto's media, to convince the region's transportation planning body of a severe flaw in their grand plan is one of the main reasons I tend to cast doubt on the Prov/Metrolinx's ability to offer reliable regional planning.
Even though Don Mills is a better arterial to build a DRL, I still see a lot of potential with Leslie north of Eglinton. Many believe the addition of a Crosstown stop there was a mistake, but after seeing a few high-density proposals for the area - not to mention the future potential of the Midtown Corridor - I think Leslie has a lot going for it. The massive valley/greenspace is also a major bonus in that it increases property values and decreases NIMBYism.
WislaHD
Superstar
Leslie north of Lawrence is more residential. Though I suppose the corners of Leslie and York Mills offer some redevelopment potential. Being a short bus ride away from a future Don Mills-York Mills station will be a plus though.
I doubt the Toyota Dealership will leave in the foreseeable future, too valuable a spot for them. Wrigley Canada might be on the path for development.
What proposals are you thinking of?
44 North
Senior Member
I guess I was just thinking of Inn on the Park, and part of Celestica (which is such a large property, the west half somewhat falls under Leslie's catchment). But I wouldn't be at all surprised if by the end of the year we'll see a major proposal for the Wrigley's site.
But you miss Flemington Park by heading up Leslie. Don Mills has way more developable land as well. Don Mills is a far superior choice.
drum118
Superstar
To determine which road should be looked at for a line, one needs to see what exist there today that would help to support a line, but most of all, can more density be place there without having a huge impact on the area and the NIMBY folks down the road.
There is 2 development plan for Sheppard & Leslie with the hospital there. When you compare that intersection to Don Mills, Don Mills win in more ways than enough. Don Mills is the better of the 2. Don Mills will have more riders feeding into it than Leslie.
Yes the developers will love the long plan.
Move 2020 has always been a political plan than a real transit plan as well election promises.
As I said in my report on the creation of Metrolinx in 2006 when it was still a bill, unless it has the teeth to override the objection of any transit plan as well change it to suit municipalities, going to fail and not meet the demand of the region transit plan. The same applies to the government who wants a pet project and technology that doesn't conform to the plan is doom to fail. We have already seen this.
There is 2 development plan for Sheppard & Leslie with the hospital there. When you compare that intersection to Don Mills, Don Mills win in more ways than enough. Don Mills is the better of the 2. Don Mills will have more riders feeding into it than Leslie.
Yes the developers will love the long plan.
Move 2020 has always been a political plan than a real transit plan as well election promises.
As I said in my report on the creation of Metrolinx in 2006 when it was still a bill, unless it has the teeth to override the objection of any transit plan as well change it to suit municipalities, going to fail and not meet the demand of the region transit plan. The same applies to the government who wants a pet project and technology that doesn't conform to the plan is doom to fail. We have already seen this.
M II A II R II K
Senior Member
Even if LONG prevails will it be built all at once or open in phases...
44 North
Senior Member
For sure. All the way up to Steeles, Don Mills is the better corridor. And with the existing density. But one thing I dwell on is the Leaside Spur trail, which I think is possible to go from a rail-to-trail, back to rail again. If it can be an affordable high-speed LRT corridor (or RER) from Sheppard/Leslie down to Thorncliffe (in place of Don Mills), I think it's worth a look. Metrolinx is vague as all hell with their 20min Sheppard to Union LRT idea, and we won't find out more about it for another year, but I think it could involve this Leaside Spur. If so, Leslie from Sheppard to Eglinton could be a good corridor for major nodal development.
drum118
Superstar
It should open in phase like the BD.
The sooner you have something up and running, it will start the change of travel pattern as well saying look what we have done and you will see more of this as the full length is being built.
I will use Mississauga Transitway as an example. The first phase was to be to Dixie Rd and then to Renforth. The project to Dixie was a year late opening and Renforth was schedule to open until the end of 2016. They are now going to open 2 stations past Dixie in the east in Jan/Feb of 2016 that will cut riders travel time as well putting something into service sooner than sit there finish for a year or so. Getting to Renforth is still on schedule for end of 2016, but could open sooner even thought the terminal is not schedule until 2017. Its a win win for everyone.
Tuscani01
Senior Member
But Leslie would miss out on Thorncliffe Park (as mentioned), the Celestica site, Morneau Shepell (pretty large office complex, not to mention all of the office buildings on Wynford Drive), The Shops at Don Mills (major retail centre, and growing residential centre), and Fairview Mall (And all of the apartments and condos around it).
Most of Leslie is essentially backyard fences from Lawrence to the 401, and then after Sheppard. It would be a waste to divert the DRL through Leslie to service the Wrigley site, when that area will already be well served by the Leslie stop on the Crosstown LRT.
wopchop
Building Toronto
Don Mills is clearly the superior corridor with regards to trip generators. There are also far more development sites along Don Mills than Leslie. The only place where this isn't true is at York Mills, but IMO, Don Mills & Lawrence, Don Mills & Eglinton and Don Mills & Sheppard far out weigh that.
If you start looking north of Sheppard, it is even worse for the rail corridor. There is nothing at Finch at all. Same with Steeles. If you went up Don Mills to Finch (one day, I suppose) you would serve a Seneca College campus that has 10,000 students.
The Leaside Spur trail is a waste of time as it misses all the trip generators along the corridor.
If you start looking north of Sheppard, it is even worse for the rail corridor. There is nothing at Finch at all. Same with Steeles. If you went up Don Mills to Finch (one day, I suppose) you would serve a Seneca College campus that has 10,000 students.
The Leaside Spur trail is a waste of time as it misses all the trip generators along the corridor.
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Translude15
Frank the Tank
Trying to re-activate the Leaside Spur would rile up the NIMBY masses as well. It's pretty much out of the question.