Waterfront Transit Reset Phase 1 Study

[crs1026]

If Park Lawn doesn't fly, ML and TTC need to do something to improve connectivity between Humber Bay and Mimico GO so that all that development is served by RER. Like a dedicated bus route with maybe a busway bridge over Mimico Creek, make it a branch of the Royal York bus so it carries on to the subway. Doable for less than the price of a new station.

ML talks a nice line on RER but they just can't get past the premise that GO's mission is to bring people to Toronto Union. Sure, lots of people at Humber Bay work downtown but there is also a huge volume of drivers who get on the Gardiner and go other places.

Waterfront LRT is similar, it will greatly improve the commute downtown, but will not make it any easier for people to connect to GO. An important ridership segment not served.

- Paul

 

[SaugeenJunction]

First of all, the Final report goes to the executive committee September 26, with a public meeting most likely in June.

As it stands, Metrolinx is not willing to build a GO station at Park Lawn since there is not enough new riders for it; too close to Mimico and haven't look a different type of service for the 2 station; Very costly due to environmental issues for the area as well the Gardiner. Dumb, dumb thinking on Metrolinx part.

TTC is starting to do the 30% design work for the extension from the EX loop to Dufferin loop and may have it built within 5 years depending on funding it. This would allow a Sunnyside to Union route.

2041 time frame is being use for the study to the point reverse rider flow is higher than the peak load.

Queens Quay E is #1 route at this time and was to be built years ago since it is already approve.

Connecting the Ex Loop to Dufferin Loop will be really handy, and I am glad federal dollars are moving the planning of this project forward. It will be a huge project however, as Exhibition will have to be completely changed.

 

[SaugeenJunction]

Mayor Tory is allegedly making an announcement at Park Lawn and Lakeshore at 11am this morning, found via this tweet. More details on the next steps in the Waterfront Transit Reset? Movement on a Park Lawn GO station?

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Mayor Tory is allegedly making an announcement at Park Lawn and Lakeshore at 11am this morning, found via this tweet. More details on the next steps in the Waterfront Transit Reset? Movement on a Park Lawn GO station?

Per @Filip Del Duca isn't there, so don't think it's a GO announcement.

AoD

 

[drum118]

I will say the phase II is a joke and no ROW out to Long Branch. There will be a small one from Park Lawn to Humber Loop.

The days of using Union Loop are number and this allow QQE to be finally built.

 

[salsa]

Mayor Tory is allegedly making an announcement at Park Lawn and Lakeshore at 11am this morning, found via this tweet. More details on the next steps in the Waterfront Transit Reset? Movement on a Park Lawn GO station?

Huge announcement today! John Tory is asking for money (again) to fund waterfront transit. The same thing he's been doing for his entire term in office with nothing to show for it.

 

[drum118]

Huge announcement today! John Tory is asking for money (again) to fund waterfront transit. The same thing he's been doing for his entire term in office with nothing to show for it.

First of all, blame TTC dumb $400 Million Union loop that has never been funded since 2008 and only good for today, but not the 10 plus years down the road needs. It was done on the cheap side when first built and show it today.

Then you got to blame Rob Ford who kill any ideas for improving transit on the waterfront because of his hate for streetcars.

You got to blame council since they decided to reset transit with a narrow window and is even smaller under Phase II. Also it must be done on the cheap size with mostly buses been use for it.

Yes Tory can call for all the funding he wants, but unless council is backing him, both Queen Park and Ottawa will take their time getting on board to do it.

There is a real opportunity been miss to put in a transit system for the waterfront because its not looking at connecting network that will help the waterfront transit to have a stronger backbone than what been look at.

You have Metrolinx not willing to build a Park Lawn station since they see very few new riders to justify building it in the first place as well the city seeing no more growth for the area once the current towers are built.

 

[44 North]

Yes Tory can call for all the funding he wants, but unless council is backing him, both Queen Park and Ottawa will take their time getting on board to do it.

What about for planning itself, do we need more funding for that? As far as I can tell there are so many questions with waterfront transit which spans over 20km, and I can only assume our planning departments are stretched. So funding to further things couldn't hurt...hopefully finally figure out the Union Stn issue.

 

[DSC]

....hopefully finally figure out the Union Stn issue.

The Union Station issue is that, not surprisingly, people want to get there to catch subway, GO or VIA and the current Union Station Streetcar loop is woefully inadequate (already). There are plans made on how to expand it, it's the $$ that are missing.

 

[44 North]

The Union Station issue is that, not surprisingly, people want to get there to catch subway, GO or VIA and the current Union Station Streetcar loop is woefully inadequate (already). There are plans made on how to expand it, it's the $$ that are missing.

I more meant the Loop specifically. Seems like as of now there are maybe five shortlisted options to remedy the situation. All costly, all fairly different from one another. Would a higher level gov't help fund the project when the 'project' in question is so undecided? Or are we asking for funds to further plan what to do?

 

[Filip]

First of all, blame TTC dumb $400 Million Union loop that has never been funded since 2008 and only good for today, but not the 10 plus years down the road needs. It was done on the cheap side when first built and show it today.

Then you got to blame Rob Ford who kill any ideas for improving transit on the waterfront because of his hate for streetcars.

You got to blame council since they decided to reset transit with a narrow window and is even smaller under Phase II. Also it must be done on the cheap size with mostly buses been use for it.

Yes Tory can call for all the funding he wants, but unless council is backing him, both Queen Park and Ottawa will take their time getting on board to do it.

There is a real opportunity been miss to put in a transit system for the waterfront because its not looking at connecting network that will help the waterfront transit to have a stronger backbone than what been look at.

You have Metrolinx not willing to build a Park Lawn station since they see very few new riders to justify building it in the first place as well the city seeing no more growth for the area once the current towers are built.

That decision will likely be revisited in short order. I'm not going to divulge too much, but that initial business case is so flawed in its assumptions and modeling, that Metrolinx is basically putting themselves out there for a fight.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

That decision will likely be revisited in short order. I'm not going to divulge too much, but that initial business case is so flawed in its assumptions and modeling, that Metrolinx is basically putting themselves out there for a fight.

It's incredible how they couldn't see the potential of a stop there with all the existing condos and the upcoming Christie factory redevelopment (not to mention the eventuality of the food terminal) - if they have to rip up Mimico to do it, they should.

AoD

 

[Filip]

It's incredible how they couldn't see the potential of a stop there with all the existing condos and the upcoming Christie factory redevelopment (not to mention the eventuality of the food terminal) - if they have to rip up Mimico to do it, they should.

AoD

I'll start with some of the flawed assumptions.

- Modeling on population growth in the area was done in a historic straight line. That's a no no when most of the growth is occurring in the past 3 years and out to the future. They are looking at a neighbourhood population of 30k by 2031, while most conservative city estimates put it at above 45k. Who hired their statisticians?

- No assumption or efforts made in TTC service integration. Byford has gone on record saying he'd like to hub streetcar and bus services at this station to fuel ridership (no mention of this in IBC).

- Assumption made for no parking. A bit rich given that Mimico's ridership is almost entirely (96%) dependent on out of neighbourhood commuters and drivers.

- No assumptions made on office space. First Capital has also gone on record saying they'd like to build about 200-500k sqf of office on the Christie site. This would fuel ridership further.

The interesting tidbit in the IBC is that only 4% of Mimico users live within walking distance of the station. That means that the vast majority of ridership at Mimico is likely people driving in from HBS and beyond. That station shouldn't exist. But.. But.. Metrolinx is less concerned with city building and actual transit planning and more concerned with how to get their crews to Willowbrook, which happens to be conveniently next door to the existing station.

Anyway... This is the start of a long fight, but a fun one nevertheless.



-

 

[Filip]

It's incredible how they couldn't see the potential of a stop there with all the existing condos and the upcoming Christie factory redevelopment (not to mention the eventuality of the food terminal) - if they have to rip up Mimico to do it, they should.

AoD

You should have been in one of the sessions we had with Byford, the City, TTC, Metrolinx, province, First Capital etc... Metrolinx starts by saying Mimico and Park Lawn are too close, so we can't do it. Byford pipes up and goes 'well, when I ran the commuter rail system in Sydney, we regularly added stations as neighbourhoods grew and this is how we managed it....'

- Blank stares from Metrolinx...

Who hired these morons to spend untold billions in transit funds? Seriously.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

You should have been in one of the sessions we had with Byford, the City, TTC, Metrolinx, province, First Capital etc... Metrolinx starts by saying Mimico and Park Lawn are too close, so we can't do it. Byford pipes up and goes 'well, when I ran the commuter rail system in Sydney, we regularly added stations as neighbourhoods grew and this is how we managed it....'

- Blank stares from Metrolinx...

Who hired these morons to spend untold billions in transit funds? Seriously.

Even assuming they can't add stations this close, it doesn't mean they can move stations - the current Mimico station is a dump anyways, and the intensification around the area is for practical reasons nil. It's a no-brainer. And to have TTC wanting Metrolinx to capture their riders and the latter not wanting it tells you just how serious GO is about servicing the city residents even at full price.

AoD