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VIA Rail

Globe reported the story with a different slant: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...how-ottawa-oversees-via-rail/article29832840/ Not surprisingly, even though this story is also factually challenged, it's a lot more neutral than the PostMedia one.

I had to laugh when someone brought up emergency services in remote areas. In Europe they have frequent service mainlines through the Alps, northern Scandinavia, and Scotland. I'm sure we could find a way.
The claim was so bizarre I had to wonder if it wasn't sarcasm. The author has made rational points in the past.

Without directly quoting your points or that of another poster, Transport Canada discussed many of the points now 'taking people by surprise' in a lengthy report published last year, and it boggles me how so many think Desjardins-Siciliano is 'out there' when he's just projecting a policy being enunciated by TC:
[...]ntercity passenger rail
services connect cities and cover longer distances than commuter
rail. Intercity passenger rail service plays a modest role in transportation across Canada,
although in the Windsor–Quebec City Corridor it captures about eight percent of the
travel market (by trips).
5
The majority of VIA Rail trips are in the Toronto–Ottawa–Montréal
Corridor, and they represent VIA’s core business, although VIA advised the CTA Review that
operations are hampered by slow speeds and limited access to track (VIA uses CN’s track
for much of this service). VIA Rail makes the case that the construction and use of a dedi
cated passenger rail track in this Corridor would significantly diminish the need for subsi
dies, at least for Corridor operations. In addition to the subsidies, which are significant, VIA
also pays CN and CP for track access. This contrasts with the use of roadways and highways,
where the principle of direct user-pay is generally not in effect, except in limited portions
(i.e. Highway 407 in Ontario – although it may be argued that drivers on roads pay indirectly
for use through fuel taxes.) If it were, particularly in respect of highway transportation in
the Windsor–Quebec City Corridor (the Corridor), perhaps travellers would see passenger
rail as a more attractive option and ridership might increase.
There is known to be significant friction between VIA Rail and CN in the Corridor. VIA Rail
has requested but not yet received additional frequencies and has experienced poor on-
time performance. VIA indicates that this had a negative effect on ridership between 2010
and 2014. VIA attributes the poor on-time performance to the priority accorded to freight
trains over passenger trains. While research indicates that lower on-time performance may
not be a reliable driver of ridership levels in the Corridor,
6
there is inherent incompatibility
between freight and passenger trains. Conventional passenger rail trains are short, light,
and capable of travelling at higher speeds than freight trains. Highway congestion within
the Corridor has been increasing and the time may be ripe to seek private sector invest
ment in the infrastructure required to significantly improve this service.[...continues at length...]
http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/ctareview2014/CTAR_Vol1_EN.pdf Chapter 8.3 Passenger Rail
 
That was before tilting trains, especially modern ones, which can go faster over curvy track than the old trains could.
You ignore that we had tilting trains on the Montreal-Toronto service almost 50 years ago.

If trains can go well into the 200s on Switzerland's mountain main lines, it seems likely that a line through the Canadian Shield could achieve 177 km/h.
The terrain isn't the issue. What's the curve radius on that line, compared to through Tweed?
 
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Auditor raises concerns with how Ottawa oversees Via Rail
Globe and Mail - http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...how-ottawa-oversees-via-rail/article29832840/

"In his spring report, Auditor-General Michael Ferguson said there were no significant deficiencies in the way Via operates but flagged concern with the way cabinet oversees the Crown corporation.

“We found that Via had made efforts to define a long-term strategic direction. However, despite its efforts, the corporation still had no long-term plan or direction approved by the federal government,” states the report."
 
Can't help himself. That's why I blocked him. Try it out. This thread becomes so much more readable without his posts. And perhaps with fewer people feeding him, the troll might learn to drop his holier-than-thou attitude.
I doubt he'll ever change. If you compliment him on something, he still makes rude remarks.
 
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and if there was a lot more humility, it would be easier to catch when they are not crying wolf.
What's the maximum curve radius on that line, compared to through Tweed?

Speaking of "humility"....you have your radii parameters completely backwards. The absolute maximum radius denotes a straight line. You mean *minimum radius*...but alas, the joke is a subtle one. On you.
You ignore that we had tilting trains on the Montreal-Toronto service almost 50 years ago.
So did the Brits. On the APT. They scrapped it. Still a legend sitting on a siding somewhere in the Midlands. And now they have hundreds of Pendolinos, since Fiat perfected the concept. Even Canada could try again....but maybe not according to you and your friend. It takes a will to better ones lot in life... best leave that to other nations, eh?
Though if the noise to signal ratio was higher
Completely backwards yet again. To quote yourself: "You just make things up". As anyone with even a semblance of technical background knows, it's "Signal to Noise Ratio"...most often expressed in dB. Whatever, you managed to completely negate the point you were trying to make, and buried it in the noise. Keep up the good work.
 
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Speaking of "humility"....you have your radii parameters completely backwards.
Yes, backwards - I goofed. But if you understood what I meant, why not simply answer the question? And what was the velocity on the Swiss trains before they changed to tilting equipment.

But why do you have to be such an insufferable individual about it?
 
But why do you have to be suck an insufferable asshole about it?
Tsk, tsk, tsk. You start calling people names, be prepared to roll with the punches. If you can't take it, don't dish it out. And when are you going to do what you keep snivelling about? Block me?
And what was the velocity on the Swiss trains before they changed to tilting equipment.
Are you purposely trying to sound technical when you obviously don't understand the inertial dynamics? Ask the Swiss. It's far more than just one moving factor. Track cant, inertial weight, centre of gravity, curve radius...even wind direction and speed all factor into it along with velocity.

MisterF made a perfectly good point, and you sneered. Your standard response to anything you lack the comprehensive skill to process.
 
Tsk, tsk, tsk. You start calling people names, be prepared to roll with the punches.
I didn't start calling anyone any names here.

And when are you going to do what you keep snivelling about? Block me?
I've never threatened to block you. Nor have I blocked anyone.

Are you purposely trying to sound technical when you obviously don't understand the inertial dynamics? Ask the Swiss. It's far more than just one moving factor. Track cant, inertial weight, centre of gravity, curve radius...even wind direction and speed all factor into it along with velocity.
It's a simple question. What radius do they have, and from what velocity did they go from, to.

Trying to sound technical? I suspect I'd forgotten much of this stuff while you were still in diapers ... which is likely why you resort to insults, because you have the incapability of explaining anything.
 
You ignore that we had tilting trains on the Montreal-Toronto service almost 50 years ago.
I've responded to this already. As I asked earlier, why do you dismiss our country's ability to operate equipment that's in use in dozens of countries around the world? Tilting trains aren't some hypothetical concept. They're a proven, mature technology in widespread use. And the tilting trains being used now are much better than the ones that we tried to use almost 50 years ago.

The terrain isn't the issue. What's the curve radius on that line, compared to through Tweed?
I don't know, I've asked the same question. And despite your habit of speaking with 100% certainty about your opinions, you don't know either. You're the one saying that it absolutely won't happen, calling it a fantasy and insulting anyone who would even study the route. What evidence do you have that what they have accomplished on many other routes is impossible here? The burden of proof is on you.

I didn't start calling anyone any names here.
Um...
But why do you have to be suck an insufferable asshole about it?
Any idiot can look at the alignment and resulting speed limits and see that it's not going to happen.
Anyone trying to suggest otherwise is either dangerously ignorant or blatantly lying.
Though if they were really dumb enough to study this in detail, it will quickly end
 
Although not as technically specific as I would like, here's the best hard data that I could find about speeds on the Havelock Sub.

This schedule was in effect for roughly 90 days from the end of October, 1965. It was the result of cancellation of the traditional "Pool Train" agreement between CN and CP. In October 1965, the overnight Ottawa-Toronto train was withdrawn and a speedier RDC service was implemented to replace it. The new service format was not successful, and in January 1966 it was cancelled, with overnight service restored on an all-CN routing. Passenger service ceased east of Havelock at that time.

In that era, CP's operating practices for Budd Cars tolerated speed. CP maintained this equipment in spotless condition. Rapid acceleration was assumed and the equipment was allowed top speeds higher than locomotive hauled trains. While more conservative than more modern tilting technology, it was as good as one could get. Freight business east of Tweed effctively ceased in 1962, from that point the track was maintained for passenger speeds, which implies a bit of superelevation.

A 2:10 timing from Havelock to Smiths Falls (109.1 miles) isn't too shabby, better than I expected - but the VIA proposal claims a 2:40 Toronto-Ottawa timing. Tilting technology won't get you that without some easing of curves.

- Paul

CP Havelock.jpg
 

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Three points before I go to work now:

#1
There are other issues with a Peterborough route that no one is discussing: much of it is in the middle of nowhere.

Now this is fine for express service with no stops in between, but it is not good from a safety perspective.

What if a train derails in the dead of january? I could just see the headline: "VIA passengers die due to non existent emergency services"
I’ve spent less than 20 minutes on Google (search: “fire station near [village name] Ontario”) and found fire stations all along the Havelock subdivision, which is mostly covered by a 10 km radius and always covered by a 20 km radius. For larger emergencies, there are always the hospitals in Perth, Belleville and Peterborough and helicopters to transport critically injured people. If you have a look at the Kingston subdivision, you will also be able to identify sections which run through forests with no road near. Also, accidents tend to happen at level crossings (thanks to the recklessness of far too many road users), which are by definition accessible to road-based emergency vehicles. Anyways, all of the fire symbols below represent a fire station near the Havelock subdivision:

Fire stations along Havelock subdivision.jpg



Despite this rather desperate attempt, you all present valid concerns of varying severity and relevance, which would have to be overcome if the Havelock subdivision was to be chosen, which again: I can neither confirm nor dismiss as VIA Rail’s intent. However, if you dismiss the Havelock subdivision so easily, you'd need a similarly throughout and critical analysis of whatever alternative alignments are available. For starters, this is a map of all ROWs between Toronto and the Brockville subdivision, which is already owned for VIA and you can use Paul Delamere’s excellent The Ontario Railway Map Collection Google Earth file:

ROWs between TRTO and OTTW.jpg



#2
Some of you have already commented on the report of the auditor general and I have struggle to reconcile the feedback I heard so far with the report I read:
Opinion To the Board of Directors of VIA Rail Canada Inc.:

1. In my opinion, based on the criteria established, there is reasonable assurance that during the period covered by the examination there were no significant deficiencies in VIA Rail Canada Inc.’s systems and practices that we selected for examination, except for the significant deficiency in governance, as described in the following paragraph. The systems and practices in all other areas we examined were maintained in a manner that provides VIA Rail Canada Inc. (VIA or the Corporation) with reasonable assurance that its assets are safeguarded and controlled, its resources are managed economically and efficiently, and its operations are carried out effectively.

Findings that support the opinion
2. Corporate governance. Overall, we found that there was a significant deficiency in VIA’s governance, despite the good practices identified in this area. We found that VIA had made efforts to define a long-term strategic direction. However, despite its efforts, the Corporation still had no long-term plan or direction approved by the federal government. For a number of years, VIA has received from the government only short-term approval of its funding and five-year corporate plan, and often late in the Corporation’s fiscal year. In this context, VIA could not fulfill its mandate as economically, efficiently, and effectively as desired. The significant deficiency could also compromise the Corporation’s medium- and long-term viability.
[…]

These first two paragraphs set the tone for the entire report. Furthermore, the report makes an important point which could be used in favor of a dedicated infrastructure, even though it does not mention it directly:
upload_2016-5-4_9-15-52.png


To summarize: the federal government had approved to give CN $251 million through VIA Rail’s capital expenditure budget to triple-track 160 km of the Kingston subdivision, in order to receive 14 additional trains, reduce travel time, improve OTP and generate additional revenues and ridership. In the end, the project ran almost 50% over budget, while the scope was reduced to less than half, resulting in a tripling of the per-mile costs and no improvement on any performance criteria (even worse: OTP and ridership decreased even further). I will let you do the math do extrapolate how much it might cost to ask CN to triple-track the remainder of the approximately 500 km of the Kingston subdivision they still own and imagine what operational benefits may be secured...


#3
My stance in this particular instance of the Steve vs the rest of this forum debate is that even though I don’t endorse his taste of humor, I agree with Mister F that nfitz was the bully in this situation, arbitrarily insulting people as “Idiots” and “liars” before then shamelessly playing the victim and resorted to personal attacks when people demand sources before they consider adopting his opinions. Everyone has of course the right to block or ignore people they no longer wish to interact with, but urging other players to block him violates my sense of democracy. The only Troll I can see in this forum at this moment is nfitz and the only person bullied at the moment is Steveintoronto; therefore, I urge the moderators to not tolerate these behaviors and tendencies. I'm the last one to deny tendencies in Steve's own behavior which might be discussed with him in private by the moderators, but they don't justify the hostility he is facing here at the moment.
 

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I've responded to this already. As I asked earlier, why do you dismiss our country's ability to operate equipment that's in use in dozens of countries around the world?
50 years of failure? Climate? Oh, I'm sure we'll get the Switzerland is colder than us meme next ... but it isn't. The all-time record low for Geneva is only -20°C compared to -44°C in Montreal.

Tilting trains aren't some hypothetical concept. They're a proven, mature technology in widespread use. And the tilting trains being used now are much better than the ones that we tried to use almost 50 years ago.
Are they that much better than the tilting equipment we are still using? Have they tried modifying one yet to check it out? Where are they using this equipment at -44°C? Finland? (where the all-time record low in Helsinki doesn't even get to -30°C?) Sweden? (which is warmer than Finland).

Maybe it will work now. Hopefully it will work now. I'd say it's premature though. There's so many double, triple, and even more curves on that alignment though - that I'd be concerned about motion sickness!

I don't know, I've asked the same question. And despite your habit of speaking with 100% certainty about your opinions, you don't know either. You're the one saying that it absolutely won't happen, calling it a fantasy and insulting anyone who would even study the route. What evidence do you have that what they have accomplished on many other routes is impossible here? The burden of proof is on you.
Maybe I've been a bit strong - but look at the individual involved and the various fallacies they've already made about Guelph. I certainly haven't been insulting anyone. Yes, I speak with 100% certainty about my opinions - my opions are 100% certain; they are not facts though, and if someone shows that I'm wrong, I apologize and move on. Sometimes I talk with 100% certainty simply to promote dialogue, and shake out other opinions.

However, this proposal contradicts 50 years of common knowledge. Maybe that's a good thing. Maybe CP knew what they were dealing with when they made the decision some 80 years (? or longer) ago that this route couldn't compete with CN, and it was more effective to build a new alignment further south (or at least that's what someone else implied - I haven't really looked at the origin of the CP alignments).

I'm not even sure where one of those came from ... and it certainly wasn't me who started! The others aren't calling out an individual, and not name calling. A disagreement, or even a discussion isn't name-calling. Heck, maybe I'm wrong about running trains through Ungava Ontario not being feasible a that price. Heck, hopefully I am wrong!! We can all dream about a cheap magical solution.

I agree with Mister F that nfitz was the bully in this situation, arbitrarily insulting people as “Idiots” and “liars” before then shamelessly playing the victim. Having resorted to personal attacks ...
This is not true. I didn't call out any individual until that individual resorted to personal attacks. I did call out the witless fools at VIA Rail who have been destroying passenger rail in Ontario/Quebec for 40 years ... but unless you are the one who made some very bad decisions many years ago, I'd think that's clear that's not applying to you.

Given Steve's complete rudeness and personal attacks to many people without cause, I'm surprised you would ignore his personal attacks, but then go after those he's attacked. However, I shouldn't have resorted to his level, and I apologize.

And to get back to the topic ... tilting trains aren't going to reduce a train that took 5.5 hours to run, to almost 2.5 - even skipping most stops.

I'd think paying off CP to move the freight back to that sub through Ungava, and using their current one, would be cheaper! (though I'd stick on CN from Union to Newcastle with extra track).
 
I've already apologized, can't we let it go? I did two very quick edits on my post ... first I fixed the typo ... and then a minute or two later, I thought better of lowering myself to the name calling, and changed that. The edits were so fast (less than 3 minutes), that it doesn't even show up in the post (the first was about 3 seconds later).

Why it was necessary hours later to post a reply using the original text that I didn't even think anyone would have seen, I don't know ... but I didn't care enough to comment at the time.
Thank you for clarifying this mystery. Despite all accusations made from my side, I have to credit you with fair play in this point. Nevertheless, the use of an old quote may not have been intentionally, if Steve started immediately writing his response as the quoted text does not automatically update - neither in the editor nor in the finished post...
 
50 years of failure? Climate? Oh, I'm sure we'll get the Switzerland is colder than us meme next ... but it isn't. The all-time record low for Geneva is only -20°C compared to -44°C in Montreal.

Are they that much better than the tilting equipment we are still using? Have they tried modifying one yet to check it out? Where are they using this equipment at -44°C? Finland? (where the all-time record low in Helsinki doesn't even get to -30°C?) Sweden? (which is warmer than Finland).
The record low is -38 in Montreal, -37 in Quebec City, and -36 in Ottawa. Temperatures in the -40s have never been recorded in any of these cities. Moscow has been as cold as -42 and Sundsvall, Sweden has been to -36; both are served by tilting trains.

There's nothing unique about Canadian winters.
 
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The record low is -38 in Montreal, -37 in Quebec City, and -36 in Ottawa. Temperatures in the -40s have never been recorded in any of these cities.
Interesting, I pulled -44 from the climate summary on the Montreal wikipedia page. But now I look closely, none of the monthly lows meet the maximum low - so I wonder if that's correct. I saw -42 listed somewhere else, but it's not referenced. I've certainly seen -41°C not far north of Montreal once, and -40°C a couple of times - but at a higher elevation than the train will ever pass. And generally, temperature extremes (in my experience) are a bit lower in Quebec City than Montreal.

Moscow has been as cold as -42 and Sundsvall, Sweden has been to -36; both are served by tilting trains.
I'm not sure I'd trust much out of Moscow these days. Sundsvall - now that looks comparable. Perhaps they have figured this out.

There's nothing unique about Canadian winters.
Not unique, but there are few large metropolises that get as cold as Ottawa, Montreal, and Quebec! Moscow is perhaps the best example - though if you look at it's averages and average lows, even it is on average warmer than Montreal in the winter! (though is prone to more extreme events).
 

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