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VIA Rail

You're thinking Business Class perhaps? First Class is increasingly rare on airlines. Most of the big names transitioned those seats to Business Class some time ago because those who used to fly First Class now tend to charter a jet.

No. I mean First Class. Like I said, it's rarer in some markets. Very few airlines fly first class cabins to Toronto (or any Canadian market) because the market isn't there for it. London, New York, Hong Kong, LA or Dubai on the other hand, every airline that can offer First, does so. A quick list of airlines that offer First Class:

https://flightfox.com/tradecraft/best-first-class

That's virtually every large carrier in the world. But like I said, just because they offer it, doesn't mean they'll offer it on flights to Canada.

There is huge potential for VIA to make first class rides "workable" time as it is elsewhere.

This. One of the things, I like about the Priestmangoode concept is the 4 person pod with the table in the middle. Imagine conferencing while traveling.
 
One of the things, I like about the Priestmangoode concept is the 4 person pod with the table in the middle. Imagine conferencing while traveling.

Acela has this.

Of course, when I last rode Virgin, there were three different working sessions going on in regular first class quads. But not every business discussion can happen in a public space - and not everyone wants to overhear - so the walls do matter.

- Paul
 
First off. Airlines haven't abolished First Class. Just some carriers have. Most major carriers still have First on high yield routes. And in some cases, First is approaching something like having a private jet. Second, international business class on most airlines is substantially better than even first class 20 years ago. And the new trend of Premium Economy is seat and service as good as regional business class (sometimes better).
Granted. But not too long ago every respectable airline had first class on every international flight. Now, as you point out, only the highest yield routes on the poshest airlines still have first class, due to the opportunity costs.

Next, real estate is nowhere as expensive in trains as it is on planes. The weight considerations aren't an issue. Fuel burn on an extra car is marginal enough too not be a concern. Especially if electric. And the cars themselves are cheaper and last a decade longer than most airliners. Spread out the cost of a club car between 30 years of two following coaches of business passengers. It'll be peanuts.
Still a massive opportunity cost. All that empty space pampering luxury passengers would be better served putting in more seats from the perspective of the rail operator. Even private meeting rooms would generate more revenue per square foot. And if a for-profit infrastructure bank is funding this project, this creates even more pressure to maximize revenue per square foot.

Remember when the A380 was first proposed, the glossy promotional videos promised duty free stores, proper restaurants and clubs, and even gyms? The reality is that airlines simply used the extra space to cram more economy seats.

But even if they don't have done fancy club car, I wish they had a better seat. VIA One seats aren't really any better than their economy service. Product differentiation is horrendous. I'm paying $50-$100 more for two drinks and a $20 meal? Only a government bureaucrat could design service differentiation like that.

Economy should be aimed at competing with bus travel. Business should be aimed at competing with airlines. And both should offer more than their competitors. More space, comfort and connectivity. Without any of the security hassles of air travel (though admittedly some might be necessary on HFR or HSR lines).

My point is that this should be seen as an opportunity to be innovative and to leapfrog. Not just catch up to what everyone else is doing. This is after all, the only major long distance rail investment any of us will see in our lifetimes in Canada.
Before we can leapfrog other countries, we need to at least catch up to other countries. Otherwise we're letting bureaucrats build sandcastles with taxpayer money, which would harm political support for HSR for decades to come. There are some low-hanging fruit we could try, like partnering with logistical companies. Here's what China proposes for transcontinental high speed rail:


Granted, even for Chinese standards it's insanely ambitious, but designing the HSR network to allow simultaneous freight delivery is something the logistics industry will salivate over. Too bad there would probably be legal hurdles of one crown corporation (Via Rail) competing with another crown corporation (Canada Post/Purolator).
 
Before we can leapfrog other countries, we need to at least catch up to other countries. Otherwise we're letting bureaucrats build sandcastles with taxpayer money, which would harm political support for HSR for decades to come. There are some low-hanging fruit we could try, like partnering with logistical companies. Here's what China proposes for transcontinental high speed rail:

We aren't leapfrogging anyone. I am not concerned about that. We're building HFR, not HSR. Which means this will be a 4 hr ride to Montreal, not a 2 hr ride. That means that you will necessarily have to have more amenities than what some HSR line in Europe has. A trip from say London to Montreal would be almost 6 hrs on HFR. Flight time from Toronto to London, UK is 7 hrs and you get a bed on those flights. So, like I said, while a bed isn't necessary, I hope they make business class adequate for the business traveler to be productive enough that it's actually considered useful over air travel. Moreover, we need to stop wondering about just catching up to everybody else. The market dynamics in Canada will be unique to Canada. What works in Asia or Europe, may not necessarily work here.

Remember when the A380 was first proposed, the glossy promotional videos promised duty free stores, proper restaurants and clubs, and even gyms? The reality is that airlines simply used the extra space to cram more economy seats.

Actually, the A380 has the highest ratio of floor space for any economy class passenger. Airbus offered to go from 10 abreast to 11 abreast on the main deck and still have 18" wide seats. Meanwhile all of Air Canada's 9-abreast 787s and 10-abreast 777s have 17.3" wide seats. This is all happened because the A380s is a beast on CASM (cost per airplane seat-mile). Sure. There's no gyms and only two airlines with showers. But the A380 has allowed features like this:

Business class on Singapore Airlines:

And of course, there's the famous residence on first class, a one-bedroom apartment that made use of the crown space behind the cockpit:
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And just in case, the ridiculous luxury was too much, this is what "regular" First Class is like on an Etihad A380:

My point is that they were only able to do all that because of the massive amount of space on the A380 which comes with low operating costs. And they used the space to offer amenities which their competitors couldn't. Indeed, none of those airlines offer anything similar on their other aircraft. And just in case, anybody thinks this is just the Gulf Carriers, Virgin, Korean Airways also built cocktail bars on their A380s, aside from the Gulf carriers. Turns out socializing on a long flight is important to business travelers. One might learn something from that observation.

Yes, there are opportunity costs for these choices. But make the wrong choice and you can actually lose passengers. Like I said earlier, economy class is competing with the Greyhound. And as long as the seat is better than the bus and the fare is the same, HFR will crush the bus on schedule. Business class, however, has to compete with the fact that the plane gets me there and working in 3 hrs tops. That means I have lost an hour of productivity and I'm more fatigued by the trip. Want to attract lucrative business travelers (and I'm sure VIA wants some of those fares), make J class comfortable enough to be productive or get quality rest for 4-6 hrs. Heck, I'll be impressed if they can compete with a bus service in India....:


As for the club car? An easy sell if we can the carts that VIA employees walk through with. Depending on TC mandated crew ratios, VIA could may cut back on crew too, if they have just one or two club cars providing food. And then they don't have to custom ordering at your seat.

The over-the-top luxury aside, my main point, is that I hope they don't waste the opportunity to think outside the box a little and work on developing a product that is strongly competitive with airlines. They can't compete on schedule. So they'll need to do something else.
 
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There are some low-hanging fruit we could try, like partnering with logistical companies.......Too bad there would probably be legal hurdles of one crown corporation (Via Rail) competing with another crown corporation (Canada Post/Purolator).

Like I said earlier, I hope we see postal trains on this route! Canada Post can run a few rail shuttles a day on the line. Alternatively, I have always wondered if ro-ro might have a bigger market in North America. The Eurotunnel Shuttle for example in the Channel.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurotunnel_Shuttle

I've done that trip in a friend's car. Was quick. No need to rent a car on arrival. The problem with doing this on VIA is the embarkation and disembarkation times. Also, sitting in the car for 30-40 minutes with nothing to do wasn't a big deal. Not sure how that would work out on a 4-6 hr ride.
 
Nitpick: once you reach the highest tiers of the loyalty program, you get access to the lounge regardless of what class your tickets are. https://www.viapreference.com/en/program/preference-privilege-and-premier-levels

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

They must have changed that. I reached their highest tier when I was in Ottawa for years. Lounge access was still dependent on the ticket at the time. Good to see they have made progress.

Admittedly, the lounge is less important on VIA because unlike an airline, nobody has to check in an hour before and then wait after security. Thus is why I hope they design a good onboard hard product.

Edit: Check out the Via Pref page. Have to have Economy Plus ticket. This is where VIA is different from airlines. If you achieve status on an airline, lounges are not conditional on fare class. After spending $2000 in a year, VIA still wants you to buy a more expensive ticket for the lounge. That's dumb.
 
You're thinking Business Class perhaps? First Class is increasingly rare on airlines. Most of the big names transitioned those seats to Business Class some time ago because those who used to fly First Class now tend to charter a jet.

First class needs for short trips vs longer trips are quite different. Not many people would pay for a flat bed from Toronto to Ottawa if its only a 2-3 hour trip (likewise you don't see first class cabins on short haul flights). However a group of people going to a meeting in Ottawa would gladly fork over some $$ if there was a private meeting room for 4-6 individuals so they can plan their client meeting.

I saw these in operation in Italy and its a great idea. And differentiates rail compared to a plane.

Of course the Rocky Mountain trip you have the flat bed cabin. (no one would want a meeting room)
 
They must have changed that. I reached their highest tier when I was in Ottawa for years. Lounge access was still dependent on the ticket at the time. Good to see they have made progress.

Perhaps they have changed it, I don't know. But I've had a Preference account since 2003, and I'm pretty sure that was the case then.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.
 
Perhaps they have changed it, I don't know. But I've had a Preference account since 2003, and I'm pretty sure that was the case then.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

Looking at the conditions, I think it's more likely that I didn't have an Economy Plus ticket when I wasn't booking VIA One. That's probably why i didn't get the lounge.

Like I said, it's moronic to have a fare based restriction for lounge access on your highest membership tier. The airlines work the opposite. If you have status, your free Aeroplan ticket will still get you in to the lounge. It's a perk you've earned.
 
First class needs for short trips vs longer trips are quite different. Not many people would pay for a flat bed from Toronto to Ottawa if its only a 2-3 hour trip (likewise you don't see first class cabins on short haul flights). However a group of people going to a meeting in Ottawa would gladly fork over some $$ if there was a private meeting room for 4-6 individuals so they can plan their client meeting.

Right, kinda. They're not flying first class on commercial carriers in North America; they charter a jet for regional trips instead. North American jet charter companies have thousands of aircraft (a little over 1000 biz-jets based in Texas alone).

HSR would capture a large chunk of Business Class passengers but almost nobody using NovaJet, Skyservice, or Paramount Business Jets (all 3 are based in the GTA) for Toronto <-> Ottawa/Montreal trips today would transition to the train.
 
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Looking at the conditions, I think it's more likely that I didn't have an Economy Plus ticket when I wasn't booking VIA One. That's probably why i didn't get the lounge.

Like I said, it's moronic to have a fare based restriction for lounge access on your highest membership tier. The airlines work the opposite. If you have status, your free Aeroplan ticket will still get you in to the lounge. It's a perk you've earned.

Actually, there you are right - that was changed somewhat recently.

I remember hearing stories of customers with commuter passes who spent enough in a year to get to Premier status and thus make use of the lounge at Union. And according to the restrictions now, you can't anymore.

But in fairness to VIA, how many people are commuting on Air Canada? There are thousands of people who use VIA every weekday to get into Toronto. Are there that many people who do the same on flights?

Dan
Toronto, Ont.
 
There are thousands of people who use VIA every weekday to get into Toronto. Are there that many people who do the same on flights?
I'd love to be able to commute to my office near Kitchener rail station. I live within a short distance from Union Station and it would be a great way to avoid the 401. However the dang schedule doesn't work for anyone with regular hours.

But I've already covered that rant.....

http://urbantoronto.ca/forum/thread...ce-the-tech-sector.20281/page-11#post-1077848
 
One of the problems with lounge access only being available to certain ticket classes was when the route didn't have a business option even if you could pay for it! (e.g. Toronto-Kitchener).
 
On another note,

Has there been any updates on contract award dates or announcements for the new trainsets?
 

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