Kitchener to Toronto train service & the tech sector

[ehlow]

The more companies open offices in both Kitchener-Waterloo and Toronto, the more need there is for travel between the two cities, not less. If you have teams spread across the two sites, then sometimes they work better when they're in the same place; if you have separate teams then sometimes they need to meet to better coordinate.

But generally, having offices that close is a pain and comes potentially with more costs than benefits. IMHO, a KW company opening an office in Toronto is mostly a way of getting non-engineering talent that's hard to find in KW. Connecting the two cities with better transit makes the combined economy much more competitive with other tech areas, like Silicon Valley or New York. (Which is to say that whether people prefer Kitchener or Toronto isn't really the right question.) It means a company can get the benefits of a single office with a broader talent pool, whether it's in KW or in Toronto. It means start-ups in Kitchener can connect more easily with investors in Toronto.

It totally agree, I'm all for better transit between KW and Toronto. It would make Kitchener a more attractive place to live as well since people living there could come to Toronto for cultural events or to go to & from the airport. Many would probably work part of the week in each place. I know some will commute between them, but I'm skeptical a huge amount of people will daily, since the most I'd hope for between Union station and Kitchener would be 1.5 trip (and not for years it seems). Occasional trips like going once a week or weekend trips seem more practical to me, but of course require all day two way service. 1.5 hours is still extremely competitive to the car if you're coming from downtown, but is pretty long for a daily commute including time it takes to get to the station. I know some people would rent condos within walking distance of Union station but it still seems long for a daily commute to me, even if you can work during it.

I agree it's rare to have both offices in both Waterloo and Toronto, although there are a few (ex Shopify). Nowadays Toronto has enough smaller and medium sized tech companies (and at least one large US company Amazon) to provide quite a large job base for those who want to live here as well though. So it's good that those who want to stay in Ontario and are in tech have that option, in my opinion.

 

[TOareaFan]

but I'm skeptical a huge amount of people will daily, since the most I'd hope for between Union station and Kitchener would be 1.5 trip (and not for years it seems). Occasional trips like going once a week or weekend trips seem more practical to me, but of course require all day two way service. 1.5 hours is still extremely competitive to the car if you're coming from downtown, but is pretty long for a daily commute including time it takes to get to the station.

Isn't there a significant number of people doing that every day on the Barrie line now?

I agree it's rare to have both offices in both Waterloo and Toronto, although there are a few (ex Shopify). Nowadays Toronto has enough smaller and medium sized tech companies (and at least one large US company Amazon) to provide quite a large job base for those who want to live here as well though. So it's good that those who want to stay in Ontario and are in tech have that option, in my opinion.

This is a bit off topic....but I sometimes smirk at how we get/give the impression that high tech invented KW.....there have been (for decades) many companies in the financial services industry (primarily the Life Insurance part of it) that have offices in KW and in Toronto...yet no one ever thought that this split office situation was worth spending hundreds of millions of dollars on rail infrastucture on. Heck, I work for a pretty small player in the financial world and we have a few hundred people in each city.

 

[Admiral Beez]

I'm fine with the number of trains that service KW from Union now, just change the hours.

• Change VIA train 85 that currently leaves Union for Kitchener at 10:55am arriving at 12:30pm to 6:55am departure, arrival at 8:30am.
• Change VIA train 88 from Kitchener to Union from 9:42pm arriving at Union at 11:17pm to 5:42pm departure, arrival at 7:17pm.

Make those changes to just two existing trains and you'll open up the route to a much wider possible population.

Yes, I appreciate trains don't operate in a vacuum, and that, for instance train 88 starts further away, thus forcing earlier departures up the line. I also realize that both physical and schedule space would need to be had at Union and along the line from CN, GO and other VIA trains.

However, before we invest in new rail lines or increase capacity for KW, why not re-schedule the trains you have to see if there's any demand? This way we avoid another UPE debacle of "if we build it, and no one shows up".

 

[TOareaFan]

^ Yes....and while they are looking at those two trains....perhaps someone can sit back and say "if linking these two cities is so important.....and we have so few trains linking them.....why do we have two of those few trains leaving Union 10 minutes apart?"

 

[ShonTron]

I'm fine with the number of trains that service KW from Union now, just change the hours.

• Change VIA train 85 that currently leaves Union for Kitchener at 10:55am arriving at 12:30pm to 6:55am departure, arrival at 8:30am.
• Change VIA train 88 from Kitchener to Union from 9:42pm arriving at Union at 11:17pm to 5:42pm departure, arrival at 7:17pm.

Make those changes to just two existing trains and you'll open up the route to a much wider possible population.

Those would be the best times for additional trains. The morning westbound train would be restricted by eastbound GO trains (and UPX traffic), but the completed widening of the Credit River Bridge in Georgetown, as well as additional passing tracks planned for the Guelph Sub should make this possible. And if the slow-order in Guelph could be dealt with, that alone would shave 5-10 minutes off the trip.

 

[dunkalunk]

Those would be the best times for additional trains. The morning westbound train would be restricted by eastbound GO trains (and UPX traffic), but the completed widening of the Credit River Bridge in Georgetown, as well as additional passing tracks planned for the Guelph Sub should make this possible. And if the slow-order in Guelph could be dealt with, that alone would shave 5-10 minutes off the trip.

The entire corridor through Guelph needs some major investment. In addition to the very poor condition of Guelph Jct. (connecting the Galt and Fergus spurs) as a major cause of the current slow order, major grade separation is needed between Guelph Junction and the GO station where the line runs through the middle of Kent Street. As far as I know, there are no immediate plans to address either of these choke points.

 

[ehlow]

John Tory & mayor of Kitchener are at Shopify Toronto now talking about tech & this train corridor

 

[steveintoronto]

The question of whether the proposed "High Speed" line from London to Toronto would/should stop at Guelph, and a good part of that based on Guelph being a "tech centre" or not is in the Guelph news media right now:

Guelph Tribune
By Doug Hallett


Mayor Cam Guthrie wasn’t invited to join the mayors of Waterloo Region cities and Toronto in a trip to California earlier this month, but he says Guelph’s place in the “innovation corridor” between Toronto and Waterloo Region shouldn’t be doubted.

“We weren’t included in that one,” he said of the trip to visit high-tech businesses in San Francisco and Los Angeles, which included Waterloo mayor Dave Jaworsky, Kitchener mayor Berry Vrbanovic, Cambridge mayor Doug Craig and Toronto mayor John Tory.

However, “that does not mean in any way that there’s not advocacy work going on behind the scenes that I am part of,” Guthrie said in an interview Tuesday.

For example, he said, he has been consistently at the table for discussions about improving GO train service between Toronto and Kitchener through Guelph. Those pushing for two-way, all-day GO trains in this part of Ontario have argued it would enhance the innovation corridor that’s being promoted as a Canadian answer to California’s Silicon Valley.

There will be a lot more opportunities for the mayors, including Guthrie, to advocate as a group, he said.

Guthrie said different parts of the Toronto-Waterloo innovation corridor have different strengths.

“Just naturally in Guelph we leans towards” innovation in the areas of “agri-tech, clean tech and civic tech,” he said, explaining civic tech as “businesses working on government innovation.”

Guelph is “just positioned differently in the overarching theme of that corridor,” he said.

The California trip happened during the first week in April. The following week saw Guthrie travel to Ottawa for a meeting of the Large Urban Mayors’ Caucus of Ontario, which he said involved “back to back meetings with many ministers” in the federal cabinet.

A lot of those discussions revolved around funding for municipalities that is going to become available as part of the federal government’s infrastructure spending plans, and Guthrie came away with valuable information on getting ready to apply for such funding, he said.

http://www.guelphtribune.ca/news-story/6508812-guelph-still-part-of-innovation-corridor-says-mayor/

 

[Admiral Beez]

The entire corridor through Guelph needs some major investment. In addition to the very poor condition of Guelph Jct. (connecting the Galt and Fergus spurs) as a major cause of the current slow order, major grade separation is needed between Guelph Junction and the GO station where the line runs through the middle of Kent Street. As far as I know, there are no immediate plans to address either of these choke points.

I wish they'd get on this already.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Just noticed this article http://www.therecord.com/news-story/7219095-ottawa-announces-752m-for-two-way-all-day-go-trains/

 

[TOareaFan]

Just noticed this article http://www.therecord.com/news-story/7219095-ottawa-announces-752m-for-two-way-all-day-go-trains/

as discussed elsewhere....there is nothing really new there (although the media seems to be reacting that there is).....the Ontario government's ReR plans existed...they were, according to the government, fully funded....so all the feds did was reduce the amount of money the ontario government was going to have to spend to implement their ReR plans.

ML spokesperson acknowledge that it was not new plans...just freeing up money for other stuff:

 

[rbt]

as discussed elsewhere....there is nothing really new there (although the media seems to be reacting that there is).....the Ontario government's ReR plans existed...they were, according to the government, fully funded....so all the feds did was reduce the amount of money the ontario government was going to have to spend to implement their ReR plans.

Nothing technically new. Politically the landscape changed quite a bit. After the provincial election there will still be one government committed to RER and the fiscal incentive to cancel it is a bit smaller relative to the benefits provided.

Electrification is actually a pretty easy and affordable step (pays for itself even on 30 minute frequencies) once all the tracks/bridges/etc. are dealt with.

So, while in a perfect world nothing has changed, in the muddled world of GTA transit I think a federal contribution improves the odds of completion by a measurable amount.

Of course, tenders reaching financial close before the election is best.

 

[TOareaFan]

Nothing technically new. Politically the landscape changed quite a bit. After the provincial election there will still be one government committed to RER and the fiscal incentive to cancel it is a bit smaller relative to the benefits provided.

Electrification is actually a pretty easy and affordable step (pays for itself even on 30 minute frequencies) once all the tracks/bridges/etc. are dealt with.

So, while in a perfect world nothing has changed, in the muddled world of GTA transit I think a federal contribution improves the odds of completion by a measurable amount.

Of course, tenders reaching financial close before the election is best.

I think it makes no difference at all.....the feds contributed $1.9B to a $13.5B project defined by the province....if the province chooses not to go ahead...then the feds don't spend the money....if the province chooses to do something else instead of that previously defined project they try and convince the feds to leave their money on the table for the new project.

there is no magic to this and it would not be the first time it happened.

 

[crs1026]

The only immediate benefit of the Federal money that I can think of is that the Ontario plan was mostly a promise for spending in future years, whereas the Federal sum is available today, assuming a matched spend from the Province. So perhaps in theory some money can be spent sooner than QP was planning.

All the same, the long-lead items that stand in the way of some improved KW-Tor service remain the same, and not easy to overcome in the short term. There is no track capacity to run trains counter to the commuter fleet at peak times, and no appetite with CN to add service at all.

- Paul

 

[Admiral Beez]

I wonder if the big KW tech firms, Google, etc. would be willing to cover some of the cost?