pman
Senior Member
Of course one solution is to drive out the "financial/information/technology services elite". Then we'll have equality.
|
|
|
U of T research identifies three "cities" within Toronto
- Thread starter screenplaying
- Start date
Of course one solution is to drive out the "financial/information/technology services elite". Then we'll have equality.
junctionist
Senior Member
The notion that the middle class is disappearing seems like BS. Most of this city is middle class housing--subdivisions, condos and gentrified city neighbourhoods.
pw20
Active Member
Condos and gentrified city neighbourhoods aren't typically populated by middle class citizens...
junctionist
Senior Member
Yes, they are. Young professionals are buying condos and homes in gentrifying neighbourhoods which were predominately working class 30 years ago.
pw20
Active Member
And neither group are statistically "middle class" (there are obviously large differences between someone making 150,000 and someone earning multi millions but the hundred grand bar puts an earner in the top 5% of wage earners). Young professionals are also not "working class" which would further lend credence to the theory that Torontos middle class is shrinking or moving to further away suburbs.
junctionist
Senior Member
Earning 150,000 is about the upper limit for middle class. Many doctors and lawyers make that kind of money, and those are traditional middle class professions. Other people buy condos too. People who work in the media, management and marketing as well as successful artists are all buying new homes in Toronto.
pw20
Active Member
I think you should look at some statistics and read the report. The median income for the City of Toronto is $71,000 (2012 data). The latest average data I could find was $38,000 per individual (this is from 2005) and while I'm sure this has increased it probably hasn't increased dramatically. Specifically this report identified the middle class as +- 20% of the average city income. If the average HH income has increased to $80,000 +20% is just under $100,000. Try buying a semi on a HH income of $100,000. (And that would be HH income). There are lots of people buying condos and homes in Toronto, but I'm not sure they are what we used to consider the middle class.
http://www.statcan.gc.ca/tables-tableaux/sum-som/l01/cst01/labor51c-eng.htm
http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2014/03/29/detached-house-prices-canada_n_5051516.html
Electrify
Senior Member
I had a prof at York who was very critical of this report. It has been a few years, but I believe his main critique I believe was that it does not do enough to factor in outsourcing and globalization into the equation. A couple things worth noting is that the urban area within (Metro) Toronto has grown since the early 70s, many of those areas which show the income dropping substantially were farmlands. Also it does not show the GTA, where a lot of middle income families have moved to.
There is an interesting comparison to the Chicago School of Urban Studies here, specifically with Burgess' rings. It has essentially inverted on itself, where once the wealthy lived further out and the poor lived downtown, it is now the opposite. Or at least, the poor is in the inner suburbs and the middle class in the outer suburbs. In a few decades, I could see the upper class wanting to create a little distance for themselves and move to the inner suburbs, pushing the lower class to the outer suburbs and the middle class gobbling up downtown real estate.
There is an interesting comparison to the Chicago School of Urban Studies here, specifically with Burgess' rings. It has essentially inverted on itself, where once the wealthy lived further out and the poor lived downtown, it is now the opposite. Or at least, the poor is in the inner suburbs and the middle class in the outer suburbs. In a few decades, I could see the upper class wanting to create a little distance for themselves and move to the inner suburbs, pushing the lower class to the outer suburbs and the middle class gobbling up downtown real estate.
DarnDirtyApe
Active Member
You can't ignore the impact of immigration either - while many immigrants are able to find work and make good lives for themselves, many have few job skills and struggle to make ends meet. The federal government seems more interested in bringing in more people instead of helping those immigrants that have already arrived.
junctionist
Senior Member
That's why middle class people are buying condos. Condos give you many options for housing at those income levels. It's true that houses are becoming unaffordable, but it's still middle class money buying houses. Older people use houses they paid off as collateral to buy additional houses as investments or have their family help them finance houses.
Last edited:
kEiThZ
Superstar
The middle class is a range. And I think it's debatable whether the old middle class professions are really middle class today. When we're talking about a doctor or lawyer with just one member of the family having an income that is 50% above the family median, and in the top 1% of all earners nationally, I think it's safe to say they are at the lower end of upper class. The only caveat to those professions these days is the cost of entry. For any lawyer or doctor above 40 these days (when tuition was lower), it's really debatable to claim they are middle class. A teacher is middle class. A doctor? Maybe your family physician. But the rest of them? Not so much.
Listing people with $150k incomes as middle class is what leads to the that nonsense like this:
http://www.torontolife.com/informer/features/2012/02/15/almost-rich/
Quite frankly, it's offensive to suggest that you're middle class and struggling when making $200k per year as a family, and spending $400-$500 per month on wine.
Listing people with $150k incomes as middle class is what leads to the that nonsense like this:
http://www.torontolife.com/informer/features/2012/02/15/almost-rich/
Quite frankly, it's offensive to suggest that you're middle class and struggling when making $200k per year as a family, and spending $400-$500 per month on wine.
pw20
Active Member
Agreed - which is why I was trying to point out that "middle class" people aren't buying houses or condos in the core... that was an hilariously out of touch article.
kEiThZ
Superstar
I barely make six figures. I live pretty average. And I do go broke some months. And I don't take vacations every year (let alone really exotic trips). I don't eat out at expensive restaurants much. Actually, any actual restaurant is a once a month thing for me. Much of the money is for investments, or to work on my business or save for an upcoming wedding. So I get how the money can disappear. And to some extent I can sympathize with these people. But not for a second, would I ever suggest that I'm a struggling middle class individual. I'm a decently compensated public servant. And I'm damn grateful for my lot in life. I donate as much as I can to charity. I'm very generous with friends and family near me. I never complain about the tax rates, and I'd pay more to get better public services.
The most offensive one in there was the single TD Bank manager making $165k per year, complaining that a lot of it goes to taxes, while sporting an $800 per month wine habit that borders on alcoholism. Yet, he's supposedly middle class because he lives in a one-bedroom condo? Gimme a break.
AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
Let's face it, historically one of the main rationale for immigration is low-cost labour - be it farmers, blue-collar workers and now low-level service workers (though the latter was increasingly replaced by the guest worker program that ended up blowing up in the current government's face). Someone has to do the McJobs.
AoD
kEiThZ
Superstar
Other than family class immigration, our system is actually setup to attract high quality immigrants. There's a heavy weighting on education and professional work experience.
Of course, once those immigrants get to Canada, they find out that Canadian authorities are terrible at accepting foreign qualifications. They also find out that Canadian employers are even worse. Most have zero clue about how to evaluate foreign work experience, and most will discount it completely.
Most of my relatives who are professionals have been dissuaded from migrating to Canada, largely because of the challenges my parents had with their qualifications. Australia, the UK, New Zealand and the USA are leagues better for foreign professionals.
Of course, once those immigrants get to Canada, they find out that Canadian authorities are terrible at accepting foreign qualifications. They also find out that Canadian employers are even worse. Most have zero clue about how to evaluate foreign work experience, and most will discount it completely.
Most of my relatives who are professionals have been dissuaded from migrating to Canada, largely because of the challenges my parents had with their qualifications. Australia, the UK, New Zealand and the USA are leagues better for foreign professionals.