TTC: Waterfront Transit EA

[EnviroTO]

If the route goes between the Telus and Maple Leaf Square buildings I am pretty sure they would have to deal with an underground service tunnel used by trucks which enter off the Westbound lanes of Lakeshore and gain access to the ACC, Maple Leaf Square, Telus, and Union Station's new service area underground. That would mean the options would be to pass south of the ACC, have a level crossing of the service area in the tunnel, or dive really deep.

The whole Bremner routing makes no sense to me anyways. The sidewalk in front of SkyDome is so thin that with anything going on people are spilling onto the street and slowing things down. The intersection at Spadina and Bremner gets gridlocked frequently. A Front Street bus could serve things just as easily. For the Waterfront West LRT it makes more sense to use Queens Quay which will be completely outside of traffic once the new Queens Quay is built and which avoids all the gridlocked intersections and minimizes the number of times it crosses routes which may have parades and marathons on them.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

If the route goes between the Telus and Maple Leaf Square buildings I am pretty sure they would have to deal with an underground service tunnel used by trucks which enter off the Westbound lanes of Lakeshore and gain access to the ACC, Maple Leaf Square, Telus, and Union Station's new service area underground. That would mean the options would be to pass south of the ACC, have a level crossing of the service area in the tunnel, or dive really deep.

The whole Bremner routing makes no sense to me anyways. The sidewalk in front of SkyDome is so thin that with anything going on people are spilling onto the street and slowing things down. The intersection at Spadina and Bremner gets gridlocked frequently. A Front Street bus could serve things just as easily. For the Waterfront West LRT it makes more sense to use Queens Quay which will be completely outside of traffic once the new Queens Quay is built and which avoids all the gridlocked intersections and minimizes the number of times it crosses routes which may have parades and marathons on them.

For the area in front of Skydome (Rogers Centre) they could easily expand the width of the road by one lane to the south where the loading ramp and tour bus parking is. Plus they have the manicured island that could be removed for use as a streetcar ROW. Elsewhere along Bremner the sidewalks are pretty wide, or will be once proposed buildings go up.

As for the Spadina/Bremner intersection. The reason it gets jammed up is because that's the main access to the Westbound Gardiner. Once Bremner is completed to Fleet St. I think they should consider reducing left turns from Bremner onto southbound Spadina to 1 lane from 2 or eliminating left turns all together.

 

[drum118]

There are video shots of the various lines at ground zero as how the streets look like today. Come 2012, a number of them will not look the same.

Northbound Cherry St from Lake Shore to King St http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PewWgAn8-5g

Northbound Cherry St Portland http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vUdu1Yo56Lw

Southbound Cherry St from King St to Cherry Beach http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUi-aGfCXYQ

Eastbound Commissioner St http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JC3yq1jqDlA

Eastbound Queens Quay http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovg_iGFO-d4

Westbound Villers St http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2jwlI9Mq-k

Westbound Quuens Quay http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6IU5Xyiqww

Southbound Bathurst from Front St http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_gLCKHcKVY

Nortbound Bathurst St from Fleet http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=scSJPTuyTgM

 

[Hipster Duck]

The Union station loop is some serious infrastructure and reminds me of those stations downtown on Boston's green line which are quadruple track and where you have to make a mad dash to your streetcar at rush hour. It will be cool.

I actually think that a waterfront east LRT is a great idea for the Portlands, especially if they have a heavy rail DRL stop near the Distillery. See? I'm not anti-LRT; I just think that they're better as shorter-distance feeder routes, and generally are pretty pleasant in planned, high-density neighbourhoods like this one.

 

[Second_in_pie]

The Union station loop is some serious infrastructure and reminds me of those stations downtown on Boston's green line which are quadruple track and where you have to make a mad dash to your streetcar at rush hour. It will be cool.

I actually think that a waterfront east LRT is a great idea for the Portlands, especially if they have a heavy rail DRL stop near the Distillery. See? I'm not anti-LRT; I just think that they're better as shorter-distance feeder routes, and generally are pretty pleasant in planned, high-density neighbourhoods like this one.

I agree. The Waterfront LRTs are going to be good and I think they're what LRT should really be, at least in Toronto. The TC LRTs are a lot worse. They're either high volume and expansion potential that they need to be subway, or they have low volume and low expansion potential and should stick with bus service. A very bad choice of routes all in all.

 

[Dan416]

They're either high volume and expansion potential that they need to be subway, or they have low volume and low expansion potential and should stick with bus service. A very bad choice of routes all in all.

Indeed. The worst of both worlds.

 

[drum118]

The Queens Quay EA has been deferred to Sept/ Oct council meeting for approval.

It was schedule for July meeting.

 

[unimaginative2]

It's actually not. The average Toronto intersection is the much larger (tighter?) problem.

I never quite got that. A 90 degree angle is a 90 degree angle, and there are full size LRVs on much narrower streets in Europe. I can't figure out why Toronto's intersections are so problematic.

It's interesting that they're looking at a portal east of Yonge. I think that's a good choice.

I completely agree, second in pie and Hipster Duck.

 

[RedRocket191]

I never quite got that. A 90 degree angle is a 90 degree angle, and there are full size LRVs on much narrower streets in Europe. I can't figure out why Toronto's intersections are so problematic.

It's interesting that they're looking at a portal east of Yonge. I think that's a good choice.

I completely agree, second in pie and Hipster Duck.

If you look at an intersection like King and Church you'll see that the clearance line for Streetcars turning from southbound Church to westbound King is only a few inches from the curb. Any streetcar that needs a wider turn radius would have to run up onto the sideway to complete the turn. Due to the new axel design necessary to make the low floor streetcars they need to make the wider turn.

I can't speak for Europe, but both Bombardier and the TTC agreed on the above fact, even to the point where bombardier was willing to pay to rebuild the affected intersections. Perhaps, and this is irresponsible speculation, Bombardier felt that it was cheaper to offer to rebuild the streets then it was to modify their base design to the European standards. But, rightfully so, the TTC felt that streetcars on the sidewalk was unacceptable. Obviously the problem has been solved though, which makes me wonder why they didn't solve it in the first place...

All's well that ends well I guess.

 

[EnviroTO]

The Queens Quay EA has been deferred to Sept/ Oct council meeting for approval.

It was schedule for July meeting.

This is so unacceptable. There are so many things Miller gets blamed for that are unreasonable but here is a project where Miller's decisions have been lacklustre from the start. He brought a Jack Diamond proposal in at the eleventh hour after months of public consultation which thankfully got shot down, and now his decision to not find a way to continue council sessions during the strike is delaying this project. They should be tendering for the whole Queens Quay revitalization RIGHT NOW. It is unacceptable after long consultation processes that council doesn't get around to approvals immediately. Council should know when a project will exit the EA phase and be ready immediately to approve it.

 

[DSC]

This is so unacceptable. There are so many things Miller gets blamed for that are unreasonable but here is a project where Miller's decisions have been lacklustre from the start. He brought a Jack Diamond proposal in at the eleventh hour after months of public consultation which thankfully got shot down, and now his decision to not find a way to continue council sessions during the strike is delaying this project. They should be tendering for the whole Queens Quay revitalization RIGHT NOW. It is unacceptable after long consultation processes that council doesn't get around to approvals immediately. Council should know when a project will exit the EA phase and be ready immediately to approve it.

God knows, David Miller can be blamed for lots of things (and praised for quite a few too) but this postponment was recommended by the Deputy City Manager because, as he says in the Report to Council, "While Waterfront Toronto and TTC officials continue to work diligently to address the various issues raised by Executive Committee, the work cannot be completed until staff of Transportation Services has provided input into this process. Specifically, staff must review and concur with modelling parameters, processes and results and must undertake the analysis required to determine the feasibility and financial implications of improving north-south connections between Lakeshore Blvd. and Queen’s Quay. For this reason, it is recommended that item EX33.18 be deferred to the September meeting of Council."

 

[EnviroTO]

"While Waterfront Toronto and TTC officials continue to work diligently to address the various issues raised by Executive Committee, the work cannot be completed until staff of Transportation Services has provided input into this process. Specifically, staff must review and concur with modelling parameters, processes and results and must undertake the analysis required to determine the feasibility and financial implications of improving north-south connections between Lakeshore Blvd. and Queen’s Quay. For this reason, it is recommended that item EX33.18 be deferred to the September meeting of Council."

An EA process is supposed to hear from all stakeholders. How is it possible after years of consultation Transportation Services hasn't had enough input? "Quay To The City" which turned Queens Quay's southern lanes into a bike path lined with grass and flowers was held in 2006 which is now three years ago. The plan has been refined but very little has changed from what was envisioned from the start. City Council should be telling the city manager that this is completely unacceptable. A Transportation related EA where Transportation Services wasn't involved? Who is running this city.

 

[waterloowarrior]

An EA process is supposed to hear from all stakeholders. How is it possible after years of consultation Transportation Services hasn't had enough input? "Quay To The City" which turned Queens Quay's southern lanes into a bike path lined with grass and flowers was held in 2006 which is now three years ago. The plan has been refined but very little has changed from what was envisioned from the start. City Council should be telling the city manager that this is completely unacceptable. A Transportation related EA where Transportation Services wasn't involved? Who is running this city.

2 June 2009 the executive committee approved report on the EA, but amended it asking for staff to look into a bunch of issues (including improving north south connections)

22 June 2009 the strike began, staff were redeployed to keep the city functioning

27 July 2009 a tentative agreement was reached with union

28 July 2009 city manager sent memo to council saying that because of the strike staff have not had enough time to look into/research/model/come up with responses for the issues requested by the executive committee

therefore staff is asking for a deferral

 

[EnviroTO]

So it comes back to the whole delay being caused by the executive committee wasting time. Queens Quay runs east-west. Why would streetcar tracks on Queens Quay and bike lanes south of those tracks have anything to do with streets running north of Queens Quay?? Who is the executive committe?

* Mayor David Miller, Chair
* Deputy Mayor Joe Pantalone, Vice Chair
* Shelley Carroll
* Janet Davis
* Glenn De Baeremaeker
* Paula Fletcher
* Norm Kelly
* Gloria Lindsay Luby
* Giorgio Mammoliti
* Pam McConnell
* Joe Mihevc
* Howard Moscoe
* Kyle Rae

Who chose the executive committee??? Ahem.

So the delay is caused by one of these people who are not elected to be transportation experts asking staff, after years of study, to "look into something" that one of these people thought was somehow important in the eleventh hour. Mark my word there is almost zero chance that the results of staff wasting more time on this will change any aspect of the constructable portions of the plan. So we wait from June to October because this committee couldn't approve the plan without putting in their two cents in (essentially peeing on the project to leave their scent on it). Sorry, I stand by my original assessment... this delay is brought to you by Miller Time.

 

[ehlow]

It's alive:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...front-lrt/article20269853/#dashboard/follows/
Toronto bureaucrats bypass politicians to make waterfront LRT pitch