PukeGreen
Active Member
I don't think we were talking about confronting other individuals. We were discussing our own personal behaviours. Confronting or policing others is a totally different topic, and I personally would never do that.
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TTC ticket booth unmanned, what do you do?
- Thread starter wonderboy416
- Start date
I don't think we were talking about confronting other individuals. We were discussing our own personal behaviours. Confronting or policing others is a totally different topic, and I personally would never do that.
wonderboy416
Active Member
Well your previous post leaves the impression that yes in fact, you think your opinion should be treated as if it's an act of law. Others have posted very good justifications for not paying and I agree with most of them. If the TTC (or an employee) sees it fit to not be at their post, they should be prepared for customers who aren't going to pay - they're the ones facilitating the free rides.
I agree, I think it's best to not to confront individuals.
Ideally their would be mobile service on the subway (another sign of how woefully pathetic the TTC is here) and if riders see something alarming (but not an emergency to justify stopping the train) they should be able to call or text a hotline reporting the incident and the car they're on... then an operator could address the situation - a service I've seen on many other subway systems.
casaguy
Senior Member
A couple weeks ago there was no one at the operator's booth at Kennedy subway. A sign said he'd be "back soon, please pay and enter, do not wait."
I had a 5 dollar bill and nothing smaller. There was no automated token machine (?!?!) So I waited about 3 minutes along with a few others... and then finally said, screw it, and walked through and down to the train without paying.
I'm not sure how much more I should have been inconvenienced. I did feel a bit guilty about... but what else should I have done?
I had a 5 dollar bill and nothing smaller. There was no automated token machine (?!?!) So I waited about 3 minutes along with a few others... and then finally said, screw it, and walked through and down to the train without paying.
I'm not sure how much more I should have been inconvenienced. I did feel a bit guilty about... but what else should I have done?
Canuck
Active Member
But... it is the law. You ride, you pay.
Intentional fare evasion is illegal.
If anything you're expressing your opinion as the unwritten law - 'if I can get away with it or if I have a (legitimate or otherwise) gripe with the system - it's ok'.
What good justification?
Because you don't like the union/salaries?
That's not a good justification skip payment.
Because the collector is not there?
That's not a good justification skip payment.
Because you don't have correct fare [like casaguy's example]?
Double pay next time.
wonderboy416
Active Member
I find it funny when people pick certain petty laws to be all righteous about and critisize others for not following the rules, then they go out and J-walk or fire up their hacked version of MS Office.
I'm not accusing Canuck of this, I'm just saying it's unlikley that anyone on this board is 100% law-abiding, and in the grand scheme of things this is something that affects no one and is 100% preventable if only the TTC did its job properly.
On Saturday there was someone in the booth at St. Patrick but his back was turned and he was counting money, there was also a sign that said "booth closed". I just waltzed right on in. This is happening to me a lot since I tend to take the later trains home... I can only blame the TTC, as I only had $20's, am I supposed to run out in the -15 weather to find a store to make change? Should I do that ahead of time just in case the TTC (which provides that same service) decides not to do their job? Should I pay $20 to go in? That's completely unreasonable. Once token machines are working at each entrance things will be different, but if the guy isn't going to care to look to see that I paid, why should I care to pay? I'll save that token for next time.
I'm not accusing Canuck of this, I'm just saying it's unlikley that anyone on this board is 100% law-abiding, and in the grand scheme of things this is something that affects no one and is 100% preventable if only the TTC did its job properly.
On Saturday there was someone in the booth at St. Patrick but his back was turned and he was counting money, there was also a sign that said "booth closed". I just waltzed right on in. This is happening to me a lot since I tend to take the later trains home... I can only blame the TTC, as I only had $20's, am I supposed to run out in the -15 weather to find a store to make change? Should I do that ahead of time just in case the TTC (which provides that same service) decides not to do their job? Should I pay $20 to go in? That's completely unreasonable. Once token machines are working at each entrance things will be different, but if the guy isn't going to care to look to see that I paid, why should I care to pay? I'll save that token for next time.
Blovertis
Active Member
Quite right. I would have done the same.
This problem is going to continue to grow until someone at the TTC is forced to do something about it.
benii
New Member
i make a run for it...
Fresh Start
Banned
This is more a morality issue than a social one. It's not as if the TTC will pay its employees any less than their agreed upon wage if a percentage of riders fare evade. If farebox collection was being used to expand upon the system/network, then, every fare suddenly has more economic weight and relelvancy. Right now they simply don't as the city is getting external source gov't subsidies with which to stay afloat and expand. And with the growing lack of tickets/tokens, which cost significantly less than paying in cash (or with a Metorpass if you're only a causal or 9-5 user of transit) don't be surprised that skimping on fares has gone up.
The fare structure of the TTC is also very restrictive and limiting, punishing the commuter who has to go long distance and needs to transfer several times. Bus drivers do not issue out new transfers to customers desiring to connect to another bus, and that other bus' driver is unlikely to accept a subway transfer POP even if the time-duration stamped on it is legit. They also do not accept other transit operators' transfers, meaning a double-fare for 905ers whereas trans-905 travel from Hamilton to Markham costs a single bus fare. This means that the customer is getting very little bang for their highly sought after buck. So while I do not endorse fare evasion for the sake of fare evasion; I do not frown upon those who would normally pay but are being milked so many times per day, per week, short distance, long distance, through unreliable scheduled headways, detours/delays, etc. that once in a blue moon they just decide enough is enough, "Screw You, TTC!" and board.
The fare structure of the TTC is also very restrictive and limiting, punishing the commuter who has to go long distance and needs to transfer several times. Bus drivers do not issue out new transfers to customers desiring to connect to another bus, and that other bus' driver is unlikely to accept a subway transfer POP even if the time-duration stamped on it is legit. They also do not accept other transit operators' transfers, meaning a double-fare for 905ers whereas trans-905 travel from Hamilton to Markham costs a single bus fare. This means that the customer is getting very little bang for their highly sought after buck. So while I do not endorse fare evasion for the sake of fare evasion; I do not frown upon those who would normally pay but are being milked so many times per day, per week, short distance, long distance, through unreliable scheduled headways, detours/delays, etc. that once in a blue moon they just decide enough is enough, "Screw You, TTC!" and board.
Chuck
Senior Member
Walking through when no one is in the booth is technically no different from stealing a chocolate bar when the guy behind the counter isn't looking. Most people would do the first, while almost no one would do the second. Yet at the same time, the same people who would walk through without thinking twice would tend to always pay the streetcar driver on a POP route, even though they could just as easily board for free and essentially never get caught.
I think that we have certain minimum expectations for how the TTC must operate. If a booth is provided, it must be staffed. On the other hand, society has already accepted that POP boarding is only for those who have already paid, which is why fare evasion is probably quite low on POP routes.
Fare evasion at unstaffed booths is solely the TTC's fault. The TTC is obliged to staff their booths, and when they don't, they should be held accountable. I suggest that everyone walk in for free when the opportunity presents itself, in order for the TTC to finally take this problem seriously and fix it.
I think that we have certain minimum expectations for how the TTC must operate. If a booth is provided, it must be staffed. On the other hand, society has already accepted that POP boarding is only for those who have already paid, which is why fare evasion is probably quite low on POP routes.
Fare evasion at unstaffed booths is solely the TTC's fault. The TTC is obliged to staff their booths, and when they don't, they should be held accountable. I suggest that everyone walk in for free when the opportunity presents itself, in order for the TTC to finally take this problem seriously and fix it.
Tuscani01
Senior Member
Funny, you are right. While I wouldn't pay my fare at an unmanned booth, I always do on POP routes.
PS. While I havn't paid at times when there was no one in the booth, I have frequently paid $3 for the a TTC ride since I don't have quarters and would rather not wait in line to get change. Im sure that more than paid for the amount of times I have gone through without a collector being present. Looks like that won't be the case now that $3 is the fare.
Sepiraph
New Member
I think this situation only happened to me once where I just paid anyway (don't take the TTC often, actually really rarely up til to recently).
Some people's argument seems to be if TTC worker is not doing their jobs, then they want to protest that by not paying. Problem is, the type of behavioral logic (Persona A doesn't do his job -> Person B doesn't follow the rules) would lead to a breakup of the society (or less dramatically, a deterioration).
Some people's argument seems to be if TTC worker is not doing their jobs, then they want to protest that by not paying. Problem is, the type of behavioral logic (Persona A doesn't do his job -> Person B doesn't follow the rules) would lead to a breakup of the society (or less dramatically, a deterioration).
Long Island Mike
Senior Member
TTC booth unstaffed: It may be watched in some other manner...
Everyone: I read thru this topic and thought about how other systems like NYC Transit would handle this.
I would think about surveilliance cameras or maybe undercover police watching out specifically for fare beaters. In NYC fare evasion is a summonsable offense and if you are caught you are also subject to arrest.
Does the Toronto Police ever do checks of TTC stations to watch for fare evaders or do only the TTC's own constables perform this task?
Unless I had good reason or a valid pass I'll pay-it's not worth the hassle saving a couple of bucks making it a possible police matter!
LI MIKE
Everyone: I read thru this topic and thought about how other systems like NYC Transit would handle this.
I would think about surveilliance cameras or maybe undercover police watching out specifically for fare beaters. In NYC fare evasion is a summonsable offense and if you are caught you are also subject to arrest.
Does the Toronto Police ever do checks of TTC stations to watch for fare evaders or do only the TTC's own constables perform this task?
Unless I had good reason or a valid pass I'll pay-it's not worth the hassle saving a couple of bucks making it a possible police matter!
LI MIKE
Blovertis
Active Member
The Star: 40 winks in the wrong spot?
Toronto Star, January 22, 2010
He’s inside the ticket booth, reclining on a chair, his arms draped over his stomach.
And that was enough to send this photograph of a Toronto Transit Commission collector — who looks to be snoozing — viral Thursday, sweeping around the world after it was tweeted by a transit rider.
It was enough to prompt TTC authorities to start an inquiry.
The photo was taken by Jason Wieler on Jan. 9 minutes before 10 p.m. at the McCowan station. On Thursday, he posted it on twitpic with this caption: “Yup, love how my TTC dollars R being spent...”
Wieler was leaving the McCowan station when he saw the ticket agent catnapping in full view. “I stood by for at least five minutes and he was sleeping,” said Wieler.
Some riders were laughing, others talking about him, he said.
A few riders went through without paying the fares or showing their Metropasses. “I thought here we are, with a fare hike, and look how the money is being wasted.”
Wieler was down with the flu and didn’t get around to posting the photo till Thursday. After going viral, the comments began piling up, mostly from annoyed transit users.
“I didn’t post to get anyone in trouble but to highlight TTC problems,” said Wieler.
TTC is taking it seriously, said spokesperson Brad Ross. “Employees have a responsibility with respect to safety of the station and the system,” said Ross. “We expect them to be always alert on their jobs — this is unacceptable.”
But he said there might have been extenuating circumstances too. “We are asking for an explanation.”
Toronto Star, January 22, 2010
He’s inside the ticket booth, reclining on a chair, his arms draped over his stomach.
And that was enough to send this photograph of a Toronto Transit Commission collector — who looks to be snoozing — viral Thursday, sweeping around the world after it was tweeted by a transit rider.
It was enough to prompt TTC authorities to start an inquiry.
The photo was taken by Jason Wieler on Jan. 9 minutes before 10 p.m. at the McCowan station. On Thursday, he posted it on twitpic with this caption: “Yup, love how my TTC dollars R being spent...”
Wieler was leaving the McCowan station when he saw the ticket agent catnapping in full view. “I stood by for at least five minutes and he was sleeping,” said Wieler.
Some riders were laughing, others talking about him, he said.
A few riders went through without paying the fares or showing their Metropasses. “I thought here we are, with a fare hike, and look how the money is being wasted.”
Wieler was down with the flu and didn’t get around to posting the photo till Thursday. After going viral, the comments began piling up, mostly from annoyed transit users.
“I didn’t post to get anyone in trouble but to highlight TTC problems,” said Wieler.
TTC is taking it seriously, said spokesperson Brad Ross. “Employees have a responsibility with respect to safety of the station and the system,” said Ross. “We expect them to be always alert on their jobs — this is unacceptable.”
But he said there might have been extenuating circumstances too. “We are asking for an explanation.”
noctis
Active Member
it happened to me once when i was at north york center. the guy wasnt there and it was like midnight. so i put in some change (not exact obviously) and just walked thru. i mean there are still cameras around so you could still get caught technically. better safe than sorry imo...
Issi
New Member
Wow, I am disappointed by most of these responses. So much so that I’ve joined this forum. I’m not rich but I’m not so disadvantaged that I can steal from the City of Toronto’s coffers to cover my fare. We have a flawed transit system, but it exists and many places in Canada would love to have one in place. I’ve lived in places without such an extensive transit system and, as such, I love having the ttc to ride. Being so petty as to not pay your fare means there is less money for the homeless to be sheltered and programs to be run. Grow up, pay your fare, enjoy what we have and vote in our municipal elections for any changes you’d like to see happen.