TTC surface stop spacing

[ShonTron]

Dundas and Huron serves Chinatown. King and Simcoe serves Roy Thomson Hall and the Theatre District. Dundas and Victoria serves Ryerson University (and the east end of Yonge-Dundas Square). I am just saying.

Not saying much. By that standard, Mount Sinai, Sick Kids and Toronto
Rehab are not served by the TTC (ok, maybe the weekday midday only 5C). Eaton Centre would only be served if there was a stop at the lights between the south entrance and Hudson Bay.

 

[Jonny5]

Dundas and Huron serves Chinatown. King and Simcoe serves Roy Thomson Hall and the Theatre District. Dundas and Victoria serves Ryerson University (and the east end of Yonge-Dundas Square). I am just saying.

If those stops were not there, those locations would still be "served" by other stops. The idea that a location isn't accesible by transit without a directly adjacent stop is absurd.

 

[Jonny5]

There needs to be some consolidation on King between Parliament and River. At least one of Trinity, Sackville, and Sumach should go.

 

[nfitz]

There needs to be some consolidation on King between Parliament and River. At least one of Trinity, Sackville, and Sumach should go.

I could see eliminating Trinity. After that it's tough. Sumach is too far from Parliament, so Sackville stays. Sackville is a bit far from River, so it should stay. Hopefully TTC has the sense to move the eastbound stop from St. Lawrence to the new traffic light at River, once the construction ends at that corner.

 

[drum118]

King and Simcoe is service by the University subway station as well the Avenue Rd Bus and doesn't require a stop there in the first place since it about 150 away.

Yonge-Dundas Square is service by Dundas Subway station, Yonge Streetcar Stop and the Yonge Bus and therefore Victoria stop not require.

You start with cross road that are currently service by bus/streetcar/subway. Then you try to equal space stops between then where traffic lights maybe located. They can be mid block depending on the location.

Sumach on King will have to stay since this is where the Cherry St line will connect and it will have a Y connection. You need a stop between it and Parliament as well one at River St.

Depending what route you look at regardless if it a streetcar or bus, block spacing will vary all over the place as you move from the city core out. It become a math game as well a ridership number to determine where the stop will/could be. Once you get into areas where ring road or dead end street exist, you then have to look at how far a person is going to have to walk to a stop with X spacing to the point you will have to reduce the stop spacing if there is no direct short route for them if stops were every 400m.

You look at the spacing between Queen St and Kingston Rd out in the Beach area, it more than 400m between the 2 lines as you go east. Same on the Gerrard/Main route as well or any other route like them.

You have to place yourself in someone else shoes to see how long it takes them to get to a stop using a cane, walker, wheelchair, stroller etc. That time saving to a healthy able walker for greater stop spacing becomes a nightmare walk for the non able walker for them.

All Sunday stops are the first stops to be remove since they are vary rarely used these days.

Dundas between Yonge and Bathurst should loose no less than 3 stops and this also applies to Queen St, King and College. On Queen, what stop needs to go for Simcoe, McCall, John, Peter since I see 2 of them going.

 

[nfitz]

King and Simcoe is service by the University subway station as well the Avenue Rd Bus and doesn't require a stop there in the first place since it about 150 away.

Yonge-Dundas Square is service by Dundas Subway station, Yonge Streetcar Stop and the Yonge Bus and therefore Victoria stop not require.

Your just looking at the simple distances though, and not looking at how people move, etc. If your standing on the east side of Yonge/Dundas, you can often walk to Yonge/Victoria faster than the streetcar can move there, even if you've missed your stop. If you are already at Victoria, you really want to fight that crowd to walk back to Yonge? The streetcar often has to stop on those lights anyway.

And King/Simcoe heading west? You don't just walk back to University. You have to cross University as well. This is a VERY well used stop.

Sure, there's some stops that should go. But the secondary stops near subway stations are not the ones. They are a godsend when it's very busy, as you can just get off and walk to the station long before the streetcar gets there. It's those lesser used ones out at the periphery.

Personally, I live near Main/Gerrard, and I'd be happy to lose every second stop between Coxwell and Main, if it meant faster service (and I use one of those regularly!). I haven't noticed too many people with walkers and wheelchairs using the streetcar. And strollers? Not sure why that would need closer stops!

 

[drum118]

Your just looking at the simple distances though, and not looking at how people move, etc. If your standing on the east side of Yonge/Dundas, you can often walk to Yonge/Victoria faster than the streetcar can move there, even if you've missed your stop. If you are already at Victoria, you really want to fight that crowd to walk back to Yonge? The streetcar often has to stop on those lights anyway.

And King/Simcoe heading west? You don't just walk back to University. You have to cross University as well. This is a VERY well used stop.

Sure, there's some stops that should go. But the secondary stops near subway stations are not the ones. They are a godsend when it's very busy, as you can just get off and walk to the station long before the streetcar gets there. It's those lesser used ones out at the periphery.

Personally, I live near Main/Gerrard, and I'd be happy to lose every second stop between Coxwell and Main, if it meant faster service (and I use one of those regularly!). I haven't noticed too many people with walkers and wheelchairs using the streetcar. And strollers? Not sure why that would need closer stops!

Once the new cars go into to service, you will see a shift in riders using what I said since the current fleet is inaccessibly. Be prepare for them as well bikes starting in the next few years for the east-west lines.

That is why I said you need to look at ridership for stops since they are the real indication if they should stay or go. Don't forget you got 5 door to use, than the current 1-3 depending which line you are on. That will be faster loading time compare what takes place today.

Yes getting off those current stop could be fast to walk to the next one because of traffic. If traffic was change, it would be slower walking than staying on the car. Just because a traffic light is there doesn't mean a stop has to be here as well.

Simcoe west on Queen is a heavy stop, but I would still be better to move it to McCaull since streetcars are short turn there in the first place and half a block away.

 

[Jonny5]

Your just looking at the simple distances though, and not looking at how people move, etc. If your standing on the east side of Yonge/Dundas, you can often walk to Yonge/Victoria faster than the streetcar can move there, even if you've missed your stop. If you are already at Victoria, you really want to fight that crowd to walk back to Yonge? The streetcar often has to stop on those lights anyway.And King/Simcoe heading west? You don't just walk back to University. You have to cross University as well. This is a VERY well used stop.

Sure, there's some stops that should go. But the secondary stops near subway stations are not the ones. They are a godsend when it's very busy, as you can just get off and walk to the station long before the streetcar gets there. It's those lesser used ones out at the periphery

This is ridiculous. You've cherry picked circumstances that make it appear these stops are useful, but the justification is really just "Who wants to fight the crowds" and "You would have to cross a street". Should we staple a stop to your forehead so you never have to cross any streets or walk any distance?

You've also cited an example of the dumbest behaviour of TTC riders using these stops: getting off because they can walk there faster. The only reason the streetcar had to stop there was to let you off in the first place! If the stop wasn't there, you would get to the next stop faster and everyone else would too. TTC riders are creating their own Nash Equilibrium guaranteeing sub-par service for everyone. The one-block from the subway stops need to be dumped today.

 

[AlbertHWagstaff]

Once the new cars go into to service, you will see a shift in riders using what I said since the current fleet is inaccessibly. Be prepare for them as well bikes starting in the next few years for the east-west lines.

That is why I said you need to look at ridership for stops since they are the real indication if they should stay or go. Don't forget you got 5 door to use, than the current 1-3 depending which line you are on. That will be faster loading time compare what takes place today.

Drum has it right, the stops should be evaluated by usage and safety of the new cars servicing them. Saying that riders can "sprint to the next stop" is great for young, healthy able-bodied people, but a lot of transit usage on the streetcars and downtown-area bus routes is by seniors and people with impaired mobility. My elderly mother is keenly looking forward to the low-floor streetcars so she won't have to climb those four steps, and she definitely will not be sprinting to a "nearby" stop if one is removed. A "one size fits all" approach with an arbitrary distance is simple, but might not be the best approach. I think some stops may be relocated back or forward to even things out.

BTW, I believe that at one time there actually was a stop on Queen westbound at James St. but it probably disappeared when the Eaton Centre opened.

 

[W. K. Lis]

They may keep the stops until after the new LFLRV's have been running, just to see what habits passengers develop. Will they board through the rear doors, or will they continue to skip past the rear doors and board through the front doors? Hopefully, once they learn the rear doors go to the same places as the front, they will start to remove the stops.

 

[nfitz]

This is ridiculous.

Disagree with me fine. But why be so utterly rude?

Should we staple a stop to your forehead so you never have to cross any streets or walk any distance?

What are you talking about? I've suggested many stops that should be removed, including ones I use. I simply spoke against a couple of well-used downtown stops.

The only reason the streetcar had to stop there was to let you off in the first place! If the stop wasn't there, you would get to the next stop faster and everyone else would too. TTC riders are creating their own Nash Equilibrium guaranteeing sub-par service for everyone. The one-block from the subway stops need to be dumped today.

When was the last time when it was busy did you ever see a streetcar run through Victoria without stopping? Lots of people get on and off there. And in rush-hour, the streetcar is stuck in traffic anyway.

 

[Electrify]

My suggestion would be to aim for a 300-500m stop distance once the new streetcars arrive, and use signal priority to try and keep streetcars from hitting red lights at side streets. In theory, this could make the Spadina route as fast as the downtown subways, arguably making it a full LRT line and an alternative to the University line for those heading into the west end of downtown.

The only one I would suggest keeping the stops closer together at is whichever street gets chosen for the downtown subway. Stops on this street should be every 200-300m on the surface with the subway stopping every 600-900m underground, at least.

 

[Electrify]

When was the last time when it was busy did you ever see a streetcar run through Victoria without stopping? Lots of people get on and off there. And in rush-hour, the streetcar is stuck in traffic anyway.

If a stop which is so close to a major street is deemed so necessary, then it is well overdue for an accompanying limited stop service.

 

[CDL.TO]

The TTC is looking to implement a standard 300-400m stop spacing across the network,including getting rid of Sunday stops.

For example, on Queen between Spadina and Church, this would mean removal of stops at McCaul, York, and Victoria.

http://www.ttc.ca/About_the_TTC/Commission_reports_and_information/Commission_meetings/2014/January_28/Reports/Improving_Pedestrian.pdf

Sounds great to me! What they have always needed is a policy, rather than the current near-random spacing. Good to hear them implementing one.
.

 

[JayBeeGooner]

300-400 stop spacing in the core is a good idea. Getting rid of Sunday stops is an even better idea.