reaperexpress
Senior Member
Here is the board report on streetcar stop rationalization, I don't believe there is a corresponding report for buses.
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TTC surface stop spacing
- Thread starter Nick.
- Start date
Here is the board report on streetcar stop rationalization, I don't believe there is a corresponding report for buses.
Kitsune
Senior Member
The issue with that is that it only has a small number of the actual moves. There was nothing posted online with all the moves. I took a walk this morning along queen - and can confirm no stop at Balsam, although there is a wheelchair cutout going westbound at Balsalm. Also, just checked the 501 stop list online... and that is not updated yet, and I did see a 501 flexity in service.
reaperexpress
Senior Member
Here is my updated version of the spreadsheet I originally posted in 2015 to show the streetcar stops which I thought should be removed and result in a spacing of less than 400m. As far as I'm aware, the TTC has now removed 28 out of the 66 individual streetcar stops (14 out of 33 pairs) I thought should be removed.
Given that I made the list manually without any database, the information definitely not complete.
The weird case is Broadview & Danforth, where the northbound and southbound stops are in different wards, so one got removed but the other one didn't. According to the report, Councillor Fragedakis opposed the elimination of the southbound stop since it would require seniors in the apartment building on the northwest corner of the intersection to walk all the way to the subway station directly across the street on the northeast corner.
The Queen & Glen Manor changes were never on here because I thought they were just supposed to be relocations, not removals: Scarboro Beach moves a block east to Glen Manor, while MacLean moves a block east to Booth.
Given that I made the list manually without any database, the information definitely not complete.
The weird case is Broadview & Danforth, where the northbound and southbound stops are in different wards, so one got removed but the other one didn't. According to the report, Councillor Fragedakis opposed the elimination of the southbound stop since it would require seniors in the apartment building on the northwest corner of the intersection to walk all the way to the subway station directly across the street on the northeast corner.
The Queen & Glen Manor changes were never on here because I thought they were just supposed to be relocations, not removals: Scarboro Beach moves a block east to Glen Manor, while MacLean moves a block east to Booth.
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Kitsune
Senior Member
Maclean... according to the sign posted... moved to Glen Manor.
lead82
Senior Member
This is one of the things that boggles my mind. Only in Toronto do we accept such closely spaced stops. We could improve the TTC a lot
by simply removing ridiculously closely spaced stops. It would improve travel time for the vast majority of people and would slightly inconvenience the few who happen to use the stops being cut. I would say that 400m spacing should be the minimum standard and that anything closer should be on an exceptional basis. This problem is worst on the streetcar lines which could operate more like LRT if it wasn’t for all the close stops.
by simply removing ridiculously closely spaced stops. It would improve travel time for the vast majority of people and would slightly inconvenience the few who happen to use the stops being cut. I would say that 400m spacing should be the minimum standard and that anything closer should be on an exceptional basis. This problem is worst on the streetcar lines which could operate more like LRT if it wasn’t for all the close stops.
W. K. Lis
Superstar
The problem are the NIMBYs and the Councillor who would be against it removal or combining the stops, whether they be bus or streetcar stops.
lead82
Senior Member
Indeed. It’s the selfishness of them. We have to think of the benefit to entire city over a few people. Besides, I would argue that the locals who use the line at the major stops would greatly appreciate the improved travel time.
reaperexpress
Senior Member
The situation simply comes down to the power balance between planners and politicians in Toronto. It's really a systemic issue more than an issue with individuals, though obviously there are certain individuals who make the situation more absurd than others.
There are 2 factors at play:
1) Local politicians have great deal of power over things they are totally unqualified for, such as determining the number and location of transit stops.
2) All it takes is a single citizen who is determined to preserve their stop to make the councillor's life a living hell if they don't get what they want. This person may never give up, and they may rally other citizens to lobby the councillor. Meanwhile there is no equivalent action from the hundreds or thousands of people who would benefit from the elimination of the unnecessary stop, so if the councillor doesn't go along with the vocal locals, it will be framed that the councillor 'is not acting in the interest of their constituents'.
This isn't just an issue of transit stops. The exact same thing is occurring with traffic control devices, where councillors are overruling City engineers to install traffic signals or stop signs in places they don't make sense, in the name of safety. Ironically, this undermines the safety of those devices because people will be more inclined to ignore traffic signals which are clearly unnecessary, which starts to engrain a culture of traffic lawlessness. And of course it goes without saying that putting in an absurd number of signals massively reduces the efficiency of cycling, walking, driving and transit.
W. K. Lis
Superstar
From this link.
Stops, Spacing, Location and Design
Stops, Spacing, Location and Design
Bus Stop Spacing
Bus stop spacing has a major impact on transit performance. Stop spacing affects both access time and line-haul time, and therefore affects the demand for transit service. In general, there is a tradeoff between: (a) closely spaced, frequent stops and shorter walking distance, but more time on the vehicle and (b) stops spaced further apart and longer walking distance, but less time on the vehicle.
Some of the findings of optimization studies are:
Bus stop spacing has a major impact on transit performance. Stop spacing affects both access time and line-haul time, and therefore affects the demand for transit service. In general, there is a tradeoff between: (a) closely spaced, frequent stops and shorter walking distance, but more time on the vehicle and (b) stops spaced further apart and longer walking distance, but less time on the vehicle.
Some of the findings of optimization studies are:
- As acceleration or deceleration rates increase, optimal stop spacing will narrow (i.e., an intermediate stop imposes a smaller time penalty).
- As steady running speed attained after acceleration increases, optimal spacing will widen (i.e., an intermediate stop will impose a greater time penalty).
- As the speed of the feeder mode is increased, optimal spacing will widen.
- As dwell time is reduced, optimal spacing will narrow.
BurlOak
Senior Member
It's all related to our system of governance. 1 Mayor is elected to view the benefits of the entire City. 44 Councillors are elected to be NIMBY''s in their little corners of the City.
And the worst thing is that each Councillor has the same power as the Mayor - forcing the Mayor to accept all recommendations of the local Councillor.
Worst still, the number of Councillors is going up.
Kevin Lynch
New Member
Is there any indication why some of these are "on hold"? For example, the ones at Dundas/Chestnut were included in that Board report, but there did not appear to be any councillor objection.
Rapparee
New Member
That really nails it. The governance system is unsatisfactory for any city the size of Toronto, and encourages naked self-interest and hubris of parochial, ward driven politics. It's a race to the lowest common denominator. Politicians should direct overall city policy and spending, representing the diversity of voices in the city. Technical issues like transit planning need to beyond their reach, which all too often exceeds their grasp.
ticky
Active Member
As a graphic designer who has a strong passion for typography, this sign makes me want to jump out a window.
BMO
Senior Member
the King stop formerly at Fraser St (eastbound only) has been moved east to Joe Shuster Way recently. Makes way more sense, although westbound streetcars going between Atlantic Avenue and Joe Shuster Way stop within 80m of each other (due to construction). They should just eliminate one of the stops and place a single stop in between the two until construction is finished.
BMO
Senior Member
On a side note, I'd love it if the St. Clair and Spadina streetcar routes went through a stop elimination review. I'm convinced that the small stop distance on both routes contributes to the overly slow travel times and bunching.
On Spadina get rid of the Richmond, Sullivan, and Sussex Stops
And on St. Clair you could essentially just blindly get rid of every other stop and still have spacing below 250m.
On Spadina get rid of the Richmond, Sullivan, and Sussex Stops
And on St. Clair you could essentially just blindly get rid of every other stop and still have spacing below 250m.