TTC: Sheppard Subway Expansion (Speculative)

[TheTigerMaster]

Sure we can agree to disagree. I for one can't wait for a final conclusion to this saga which should come after both provincial and municipal election.

If it must be LRT, then a stop every 650-800m with priority signals like in Europe and a design simular to the Wynford stop
slide #35 (http://thecrosstown.ca/news-media/whats-new/station-design-update-meeting-east-open-house) where it looks like a pedestrian bridge which would provide a safer access to the station and reduce the risk of slowing down the trains who won't have to worry about people crossing the tracks. If they replicate that, then I'll be more supportive.

Otherwise, it should be BRT in the near future. The reason is that I have a feeling the province will build the DRL from Pape to Dundas West and leave Eglinton out. That billion on Sheppard would be more productive if we had a complete DRL right from the start.

Sheppard East is approaching the limits of what a BRT can accommodate. Sheppard at launch will have about 4,000 pphpd while a BRT has at max 5,000 pphpd. I'm not at all comfortable building any transit solution when we're less than 1000 pphpd from it's practical limit.

 

[W. K. Lis]

I was thinking that converting Sheppard Line to LRT might be done cheaper if Metrolinx finds/orders some modified, high-platform LRT vehicles, something like those in the picture:

The station BOXES currently used for the Sheppard Subway is not entirely used. Parts are sealed off. Those parts could be modified for low-floor LRV platforms, leaving the high-floor to be modified AFTER the changeover.

 

[gweed123]

At some point you have to finalize the decisions and stick with the decisions for the next 5-10 years to get through the EA and construction. If we keep making changes, you throw away years of work and millions of dollars every time, the further along the worse it is.

Exactly, and this is why the solutions I'm putting forward on here and in my transit maps feature "as-is implementations" of all currently funded projects. The deviations from the official plans that I'm proposing are all in subsequent phases. Projects where there's barely even a preliminary design, and there's no funding attached.

This Sheppard conversion plan isn't an "OMG we need to do this tomorrow!" proposal. It's mid-2020's at best. Get Eglinton open. Get the Finch West and Sheppard East LRTs open, and then begin the talk of connecting those two to form a single northern crosstown line. This conversion proposal would happen either in tandem with, or immediately on the heels of, construction of the main part of the DRL.

 

[accura407]

Sheppard East is approaching the limits of what a BRT can accommodate. Sheppard at launch will have about 4,000 pphpd while a BRT has at max 5,000 pphpd. I'm not at all comfortable building any transit solution when we're less than 1000 pphpd from it's practical limit.

I think the modelling has to be redone now because there is going to be an interceptor of traffic at Sheppard & McCowan. Once that subway station opens up, I think I can bet $$ that the pphpd along Sheppard will drop quite a bit since now the far east riders will get off at McCowan and take the subway down...

Then we are talking about a short segment of Sheppard from Warden to McCowan. That portion will not reach a level where BRT cannot handle ridership... Maybe never

I honestly think that an LRT along Sheppard all the way to Morningside + a subway station at McCowan and Sheppard is a bit of an overkill for Scarborough (I Spent most of my life there)

Now, if the plans change again and Scaborough LRT comes back into the picture AGAIN, and a B-D subway extension is abandoned then yes an LRT along Sheppard is appropriate.

I would even say, a subway extension to Vic Park + BRT is fine now that the B-D extension is happening but if we are spending so much money launching a TBM, might as well send it to Warden.

 

[Voltz]

I think the modelling has to be redone now because there is going to be an interceptor of traffic at Sheppard & McCowan. Once that subway station opens up, I think I can bet $$ that the pphpd along Sheppard will drop quite a bit since now the far east riders will get off at McCowan and take the subway down...

Then we are talking about a short segment of Sheppard from Warden to McCowan. That portion will not reach a level where BRT cannot handle ridership... Maybe never

I honestly think that an LRT along Sheppard all the way to Morningside + a subway station at McCowan and Sheppard is a bit of an overkill for Scarborough (I Spent most of my life there)

Now, if the plans change again and Scaborough LRT comes back into the picture AGAIN, and a B-D subway extension is abandoned then yes an LRT along Sheppard is appropriate.

I would even say, a subway extension to Vic Park + BRT is fine now that the B-D extension is happening but if we are spending so much money launching a TBM, might as well send it to Warden.

So, LRT is overkill, but a subway is not, even just a subway to Victoria Park that would cost just as much as the LRT?

 

[quicksilver]

I think the modelling has to be redone now because there is going to be an interceptor of traffic at Sheppard & McCowan. Once that subway station opens up, I think I can bet $$ that the pphpd along Sheppard will drop quite a bit since now the far east riders will get off at McCowan and take the subway down...

Then we are talking about a short segment of Sheppard from Warden to McCowan. That portion will not reach a level where BRT cannot handle ridership... Maybe never

I honestly think that an LRT along Sheppard all the way to Morningside + a subway station at McCowan and Sheppard is a bit of an overkill for Scarborough (I Spent most of my life there)

Now, if the plans change again and Scaborough LRT comes back into the picture AGAIN, and a B-D subway extension is abandoned then yes an LRT along Sheppard is appropriate.

I would even say, a subway extension to Vic Park + BRT is fine now that the B-D extension is happening but if we are spending so much money launching a TBM, might as well send it to Warden.

accura407 you are hereby charged and convicted with snobbery against the eastern third of Toronto, formerly known as Scarborough. For your crimes you are required to turn in your automobile (presumably some rebadged Honda) and will ride the TTC 85 Sheppard East, rain or snow, for one full year.

 

[accura407]

So, LRT is overkill, but a subway is not, even just a subway to Victoria Park that would cost just as much as the LRT?

Are you saying that a 2 stop extension of a subway from Don Mills to Victoria Park costs $1 Billion Dollars? Even though a 6 stop extension north to Vaughan costs only $2.4B?
Let's not forget that the original Sheppard Subway costed $984 Million Dollars from Yonge to Don Mills - including the expensive and complex interchange station at Yonge

I would estimate an extension should cost no more than 300-400 Million to Vic Park.

Perhaps its high time we begin to question why prices are so hyper inflated in the GTA.

 

[JayBeeGooner]

Sheppard East is approaching the limits of what a BRT can accommodate. Sheppard at launch will have about 4,000 pphpd while a BRT has at max 5,000 pphpd. I'm not at all comfortable building any transit solution when we're less than 1000 pphpd from it's practical limit.

And BRT at those upper limits will require passing lanes, and many buses.

 

[accura407]

accura407 you are hereby charged and convicted with snobbery against the eastern third of Toronto, formerly known as Scarborough. For your crimes you are required to turn in your automobile (presumably some rebadged Honda) and will ride the TTC 85 Sheppard East, rain or snow, for one full year.

Funny because i actually drive a typical scarborough car (old 2 door red honda civic coup) but I only got that a year ago.

I lived in Morningside & Lawrence area. That is what I call the true eastern part of Toronto. Neglected by past, present, and future transit. Low Density. Made for the car. Basically an eastern Pickering.

 

[accura407]

And BRT at those upper limits will require passing lanes, and many buses.

I suggested Sheppard be widening to a 6 lane road similar to the profile of Eglinton Avenue but instead of HOV lanes on the outside, you make them bus only lanes...but on the outside so that
turning across median is possible and impacts to existing mid block businesses are minimized.

Isn't that what they do in Ottawa?

 

[gweed123]

I suggested Sheppard be widening to a 6 lane road similar to the profile of Eglinton Avenue but instead of HOV lanes on the outside, you make them bus only lanes...but on the outside so that
turning across median is possible and impacts to existing mid block businesses are minimized.

Isn't that what they do in Ottawa?

That type of BRT setup would be very well suited for Sheppard, and I do agree with your contention that the Scarborough Subway will drastically alter the travel patterns on Sheppard (I've posted so myself several times). Don't get me wrong, I've posted in favour of BRT on Sheppard out the wazoo, I'm just offering up an alternative that doesn't relegate the SELRT to the trash heap, and actually makes the Sheppard Subway useful.

 

[Voltz]

Are you saying that a 2 stop extension of a subway from Don Mills to Victoria Park costs $1 Billion Dollars? Even though a 6 stop extension north to Vaughan costs only $2.4B?
Let's not forget that the original Sheppard Subway costed $984 Million Dollars from Yonge to Don Mills - including the expensive and complex interchange station at Yonge

I would estimate an extension should cost no more than 300-400 Million to Vic Park.

Perhaps its high time we begin to question why prices are so hyper inflated in the GTA.

Yes, and that is what the TTC and Metrolinx said it would cost as well,

 

[innsertnamehere]

its 1.7km. probably around 600 million to Vic Park.

 

[accura407]

That type of BRT setup would be very well suited for Sheppard, and I do agree with your contention that the Scarborough Subway will drastically alter the travel patterns on Sheppard (I've posted so myself several times). Don't get me wrong, I've posted in favour of BRT on Sheppard out the wazoo, I'm just offering up an alternative that doesn't relegate the SELRT to the trash heap, and actually makes the Sheppard Subway useful.

Yes, I generally read and don't get involved - I know you've been an advocate. I agree with your justifications for BRT but in the past it was hard to swallow as a 1:1 replacement for LRT. Now that the B-D extension is happening, BRT is suddenly the most acceptable solution for the corridor. If an EA were to be done today, I am positive that would be the conclusion but I am sure scarborough Councillors wouldn't do it because they fear the results.

Everyone seems to forget that whether its LRT or Subway, tunnelling has to occur between Don Mills and Consumers Station. So it is NOT fair to compare the two just by pointing at numbers. The question that needs an answer is, how much extra does it cost to build a subway from Consumers to Victoria Park? Rather than from Don Mills to Vic Park!

The answer to that has to be very small amount. Also, in the wide avenue of Sheppard in suburban scarborough, why is cut and cover tunneling 100% ruled out? From Vic Park to Warden, they could easily do a cut and cover while still having a minimum of 4 lanes operational during construction. Its a HUGE ROW. This is no Eglinton here... They would save a fortune!

The only reason (In my opinion) that they used a TBM for the Vaughan extension is because it barely follows one single avenue...it's a curvy diagonal run going all over the place.

I find it funny nobody questions the costs involved and the different ways to deliver it? Everyone is so focused on the LRT vs subway debate! How about looking at the construction of it?

 

[BurlOak]

The City of Toronto and the Toronto Transit Commission are no longer in charge of the design of the Finch West LRT, Sheppard East LRT or Eglinton Crosstown LRT. Metrolinx has taken over. Your six year old document is woefully outdated. We know absolutley nothing about the design of Finch West or Sheppard East, with the exception of the general route than the lines will take.

If the design of the ROW Eglinton Crosstown LRT and Metolinx's other projects around the province are any indication, the Finch West and Sheppard East LRTs will be quite well executed. Certainly much more than just "glorified streetcars"

I copied this over from the Yonge Thread.

For 4 years people kept saying the Eglinton would switch to a South alignment at Leslie when detailed design would be done.

What that taught us was that any plan that exists cannot be dismissed even if it is a poor plan. It is actually illogical to assume that the plans will change.