Transit City: Sheppard East Debate

[Voltz]

There is absolutely no sense in spending $800 million+ on a project that by the TTC's own estimation will eventually be replaced by another project that would cost no more than $2 billion if we just built it in the first place.

What estimation has the TTC done that conculdes this line would be replaced by a subway?

With all the other subway projects out there, it would be at least 20 years before sheppard gets built anyways, even if they decided today to do so.

 

[jks]

I know those cross-sections of streets are just an example, but WILL this line have side poles or centre poles? I know it seems like a pointless question not even relevant at this point, but side poles mean lots of wire clutter. Also, if they convert to pantograph, the side poles will be obsolete as pantographs need high-tension wires. Any details??

 

[rbt]

What estimation has the TTC done that conculdes this line would be replaced by a subway?

Sheppard subway to SCC is still on the books with TTC and city for a long term plan. That is, sometime in the next 30 years city staff will start to think about it again.

Many things hang around the planning department for that long under a long term vision. Heck, Dufferin Jog elimination was around that long.

IMO, long term planning is generally a good thing -- like having a general idea of what to do with T1 at Pearson once it is old (around 2050). This lets you depreciate it appropriately and create per-year cost/benefit analysis.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Another good chunk of that is past Kennedy road which would not be replaced with a subway if the subway went to SCC.

If the subway ran to STC (via a turn around Kennedy/Agincourt), the Transfer City line would not be built at all east of there, saving hundreds of millions of dollars more.

Well, it wouldn't get built if sane people ran this city...

 

[Dan416]

If the subway ran to STC (via a turn around Kennedy/Agincourt), the Transfer City line would not be built at all east of there, saving hundreds of millions of dollars more.

Well, it wouldn't get built if sane people ran this city...

Ah, "if"...

 

[khris]

If the subway ran to STC (via a turn around Kennedy/Agincourt), the Transfer City line would not be built at all east of there, saving hundreds of millions of dollars more.

Well, it wouldn't get built if sane people ran this city...

Well if people would actually vote in municipal elections, and pay attention to the issues the city faces, then maybe there would be more sane people running the city.
That's just another if though.

 

[rbt]

If the subway ran to STC (via a turn around Kennedy/Agincourt), the Transfer City line would not be built at all east of there, saving hundreds of millions of dollars more.

Well, it wouldn't get built if sane people ran this city...

It would be built.

The new community centres, LRT, and other city investment in the trouble neighbourhoods will serve to increase the affluence of the people there and push out the current residents who cannot afford the new pricing. 10 years from now those neighbourhoods will probably not be major crime spots anymore.

A good chunk of transit city is, as far as I can tell, about moving crime to Mississauga, etc. out of Municipality of Toronto.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

It would be built.

The new community centres, LRT, and other city investment in the trouble neighbourhoods will serve to increase the affluence of the people there and push out the current residents who cannot afford the new pricing. 10 years from now those neighbourhoods will probably not be major crime spots anymore.

A good chunk of transit city is, as far as I can tell, about moving crime to Mississauga, etc. out of Municipality of Toronto.

I know what Miller & friends' goals are (the first thing I noticed when Transfer City came out was that lines intersected at Jane & Finch, Flemingdon, and Malvern), but it would not be built if actually improving transit was the primary goal behind such a transit plan, and it would not have been built if the Sheppard subway was finished.

 

[rbt]

but it would not be built if actually improving transit was the primary goal behind such a transit plan, and it would not have been built if the Sheppard subway was finished.

Agreed and agreed. But since we all know improving transit is a secondary to the goal, there is no point on arguing what would happen if it was.

 

[Brandon716]

Ugh, they really need to finish the Sheppard subway to Scarborough Centre and be done with the project forever.

Transit City needs to be revised badly, it theoretically could create one of the greatest mass transit networks in North America if they just finish a core TTC subway system with the DRL, an Eglinton TTC subway, and finish the Sheppard TTC subway. LRT everywhere else, but the core can't be "light" it has to be full out subway.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Agreed and agreed. But since we all know improving transit is a secondary to the goal, there is no point on arguing what would happen if it was.

If it was, or if it had been extended/finished years ago, the focus would move to the northern half of Malvern and we'd be discussing the Finch Crosstown Transfer City line.

 

[Rainforest]

I just finished reading the EA. Their assessment, repeated several times in the document, that a subway would draw 5000 riders per hour is striking. Particularly, since they don't think that it's going to rise to the point where a subway is going to be needed. If that's the case, then I am starting to think that if the LRT is inevitable, then we might as well consider converting the subway to LRT and getting rid of the transfer.

There exists another option that should be considered at least. The current price tag for Sheppard E LRT is 800 m. What if those funds are used to extend the subway further east, instead of building the LRT line? For that amount, the subway would probably get to Sheppard and Warden.

Technically, such subway extension would cover a much shorter stretch than the LRT line, for the same cost. Nevertheless, the subway might be beneficial for a greater number of passengers, including those who do not live near it. People living further east near Sheppard, would get faster E-W trips since their bus would connect to subway sooner. The Finch E and Ellesmere bus routes could be reconfigured so that branches serving the eastern sections operate off the Sheppard subway terminus. Some passengers from Markham would be interested in using the subway, too.

In contrast, the LRT line as planned will be somewhat helpful for people living or working near Sheppard, but won't attract transfer passengers.

With the subway extension, the system would remain open for further upgrades (likely beyond the 25-year plan): both the subway further east and west, and LRT east of Agincourt.

 

[M II A II R II K]

They should extend it further east and west, and run up the York University extension too. There would be room for the trains also since less than half of the Spadina trains will actually run up it. And a direct route from VCC to STC should attract many riders also.

Extending the subway to just Consumers would be a pain for anyone travelling on Don Mills and want to travel east on Sheppard.

 

[Dan416]

There exists another option that should be considered at least. The current price tag for Sheppard E LRT is 800 m. What if those funds are used to extend the subway further east, instead of building the LRT line? For that amount, the subway would probably get to Sheppard and Warden.

Technically, such subway extension would cover a much shorter stretch than the LRT line, for the same cost. Nevertheless, the subway might be beneficial for a greater number of passengers, including those who do not live near it. People living further east near Sheppard, would get faster E-W trips since their bus would connect to subway sooner. The Finch E and Ellesmere bus routes could be reconfigured so that branches serving the eastern sections operate off the Sheppard subway terminus. Some passengers from Markham would be interested in using the subway, too.

In contrast, the LRT line as planned will be somewhat helpful for people living or working near Sheppard, but won't attract transfer passengers.

With the subway extension, the system would remain open for further upgrades (likely beyond the 25-year plan): both the subway further east and west, and LRT east of Agincourt.

I accept your idea as a temporary compromise.

That said if we had a program of continuous subway-building then we could plan it all out gradually, adding a stop every couple years until we finally reach STC. Spreading the costs over many years like that would be far more financially feasible I think.

 

[lead82]

Or alternatively we can also spend $800M (or less) to extend Sheppard West to Downsview and interline with the Spadina extension. By only adding 2 stops: Bathurst & Downsview, it will improve network connectivity by finally connecting Yonge and Spadina lines north of Bloor. It will also reduce a transfer for those in Scarborough that want to go to York U.