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Transit City: Sheppard East Debate

If we are going to extend the subway east, it should end at Victoria Park, where there are more office buildings and residential apartments there. Consumers road is a strange place for a subway terminal. It will essentially be a station built for the sake of transferring to a streetcar line.
 
Yeah, I agree with you on that. Perhaps Metrolinx will provide some sober second thought (well one can always dream ...).
 
Lets hope that Metrolinx offers a better deal for this. I think it is doubtful, but you never know.

Another thing about this line I find strange is the end point at Meadowvale. Why would you end the line there? Might as well extend it like 500m north and terminate at the Toronto Zoo. It would make a zoo a destination on an LRT line. The Sheppard bus goes there, so with the 85 being removed will that mean the zoo will no longer have bus service after this is completed? Seems very silly to me.
 
Don't even terminate outside the zoo. Have it follow the old people mover route.

Now THERE's an idea!
Too bad they took down the monorail tracks. A little bit of techiical effort and maybe we could have had something that ran from Downsview clear to the bison enclosure...
 
http://network.nationalpost.com/np/...-avenue-east-anxiety-over-a-transit-plan.aspx

On Sheppard Avenue East, anxiety over a transit plan
Posted: January 08, 2009, 5:14 PM by Rob Roberts


The TTC this year embarks on construction of Transit City, its plan to build a 120-kilometre network of light rail lines over the next 15 years. Peter Kuitenbrouwer begins a series of columns on the $8-billion project, which is almost entirely unfunded and remains largely a leap of faith for city hall.

At first glance, Sheppard Avenue, running east from Highway 404 through Scarborough toward the zoo, seems an unlikely place to pioneer Toronto’s light rail revolution.

The street is filled with car dealerships: Agincourt Nissan, Brimell Toyota, Scarborotown Jeep Chrysler Dogde, Hogan Chevrolet, Go Go Auto Sales, Ford Eastcourt and AAA Cars, plus gas stations and body shops. A sprawling Canadian Tire, fronted by a prodigious parking lot, dominates the corner of Sheppard and McCowan Road.

This is car country. And this is also ground zero for Transit City. The Toronto Transit Commission will soon start digging up Sheppard this year in the first phase of the plan, which will banish cars from the two centre lanes of this avenue along 14 kilometres, forevermore.

No wonder the natives are restless.

“The TTC are being very co-operative but I also believe that, on their best day, it’s going to be a train wreck for business,†says George Markakos (pictured above), owner of Joey Bravo’s, an Italian pasta and steak house his father founded 36 years ago, on Sheppard Avenue just west of McCowan. He has 44 parking spaces.

The Sheppard East Village Business Improvement Area mailed out a news release the other day warning that, “revenues lost as a result of LRT construction will threaten the existence of many small and family-owned businesses in Sheppard East Village -- and bankruptcy may be their only option.â€

Mr. Markakos also points out that, once the job is done, the right-of-way down the centre of Sheppard will force eastbound motorists to drive half a kilometre past his restaurant, then make a u-turn and double back to come for dinner. As for transit users, whose light rail vehicles will still stop at all traffic lights (as the Sheppard bus does now), “I’m not sure how much time you’re going to save,†he says.

The BIA folks say that, about a year ago, Mr. Giambrone convoked them to an emergency meeting, held at Brimell Toyota. He announced the TTC had picked Sheppard for the first LRT. He did not ask their opinion; instead he brought a box of LRT buttons for them to wear. Most left the buttons at the meeting.

“Giambrone just showed up one day and dropped this bomb on us,†says Mark Bozian, owner of Brimell Toyota, who recently invested $7-million in his business. He pays $30,000 a month in business property tax, he says.

Mr. Giambrone responded to my questions by releasing the BIA’s letter to him of March, 2007, in which the business owners wrote, “there are many ... reasons why this part of the TTC plan makes sense and ought to have priority status in any rapid transit development.â€

Yes, say the business owners, we support the goal. But they do fear that the TTC is rushing into this project without a clear plan. Indeed, look more closely at the Sheppard light rail project and strange details emerge:

•The city does not have the money to build the line. “Metrolinx [the provincial transportation planning agency] has supported the Sheppard line,†Mr. Giambrone says. “We have the money to commence the work in 2009. None of the money will come from the city.†(Metrolinx has asked the province to put $55-million in its budget this year for Sheppard; the province has the last say).

•The TTC has still not decided how the line will connect to the Sheppard subway, which ends at Don Mills Road. Either the TTC will extend the subway one station west to Consumers Road, tunneling under Highway 404, or run the LRT east, either in a tunnel or at grade, under the highway to Don Mills.

• The TTC apparently still has not decided how to run the LRT under a train bridge east of Midland, where the LRT may have to merge with car traffic to fit.

• There is no clear plan to connect the new line to the Scarborough rapid transit line, which is on the other side of Highway 401.

• The TTC has not ordered cars for the line.

• The price is rising. In March, 2007, a TTC report said the Sheppard line would cost $555-million, including vehicles. Today Mr. Giambrone says it will cost $800-million.

Because of the complexities on the west bit of this project, the TTC has decided to build from the east, which means some parts of Sheppard will have a train-only strip down their centre for years before anyone sees a train.

Few locals around here have heard of the plan, but many supported the idea when I told them about it. At Canadian Tire, I talked to Bob Drummond -- who had bought a lunch box for his job at the Cadbury Adams candy factory in Scarborough.

“If people don’t have cars it’s going to give them options, they can get downtown, it’s not going to be Scarberia anymore,†he says.

Greg Toth, who was eating a burger at the Agincourt Mall, is not so sure. He moved here four years ago from Florida; after two years struggling on the TTC, he bought a 1994 Mercury Topaz, which he uses to around Scarborough. He’s wary of the light rail deam.

“I’m very suspect about the TTC’s ability to make proper decisions,†he said.

*****

While I don't care much about what businesses on Sheppard say about the disruption caused by LRT construction (they'd probably react the same way to a subway line), I just think it's hilarious the way the TTC is pitching the LRT scheme to the businesses according to the above article.
 
I guarantee the businesses would not object to a new subway line. They were extremely enthusiastic about the current Sheppard line.

The article really shows how heavy-handed Giambrone and the TTC have been about these LRT lines. They're clearly convinced to an almost religious degree that LRT is the saviour and people will understand only once it's built. Unfortunately, I think the business owner is on to something when he suggests that it won't likely save people much time. Of course, we know that to the TTC, that doesn't matter.
 
• The price is rising. In March, 2007, a TTC report said the Sheppard line would cost $555-million, including vehicles. Today Mr. Giambrone says it will cost $800-million.

And finishing the subway would cost $2 billion? Sounds to me that a better solution would be to either finish the subway or leave the current bus service as is until the subway can be completed.
 
And finishing the subway would cost $2 billion? Sounds to me that a better solution would be to either finish the subway or leave the current bus service as is until the subway can be completed.

Finishing the subway would be well above $2B.

6 car train upgrade and storage yard (currently Davisville which is full) were not a part of that estimate as I recall, not to mention construction inflation, and likely a massive overhaul of SCC station which was not really in the original either. The yard requirement for Sheppard and Yonge extension are pretty significant taken together.

That said, the VCC and Yonge extensions should start to impact the cost of subway construction in general. Staged properly, the staff from the other 2 extensions should be trained, experienced, and available to do other work in the same area. That includes specialized equipment like TBM's.


The federal and provincial budget will be interesting. Infrastructure money should go to minor projects (patch the school roof, etc.) as they can be out the door very quickly and have an impact.

Major projects require too much planning to have an immediate impact but governments like them so they may be preferred.

Metrolinx still wants a second east/west artery and Sheppard is more central in the GTA than Eglinton. April might be an interesting month.
 
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Finishing the subway would be well above $2B.

6 car train upgrade and storage yard (currently Davisville which is full) were not a part of that estimate as I recall, not to mention construction inflation, and likely a massive overhaul of SCC station which was not really in the original either. The yard requirement for Sheppard and Yonge extension are pretty significant taken together.

As long as cost is not an issue in the design (and it wasn't with the Spadina and Yonge extensions), it'll be over $2B. If STC's bus terminal can be retained in some way, the only station that would need to be any larger than Bessarion is the GO interchange (Kennedy, Midland, and Sheppard buses could funnel into it, with Kennedy and Midland continuing on south to Kennedy station). That knocks like $200M off the other two similar-sized projects right there, and there's room for other changes.

If the DRL is built and run up Don Mills, an excellent yard could be made at the SW corner of Don Mills and the 401...unfortunately, I think the city wants to fully and stupidly squander the site by building an arena and hundreds of surface parking spots. A property or two in the industrial land between Kennedy and STC could be acquired to make another yard.
 
... Metrolinx still wants a second east/west artery and Sheppard is more central in the GTA than Eglinton. April might be an interesting month.

This is a good point, and it probably makes sense to settle for LRT on Eglinton while gradually building a subway corridor along Sheppard.

If the total cost of all Sheppard plans (subway to STC and Downsview, plus LRT east of Agincourt) is too large to be funded within the 25-year plan, then perhaps a reasonable compromise is a partial subway extension.

For example, the subway can be extended west from Yonge to Downsview and east from Don Mills to Warden (likely for about 2 B combined), and the bus network rearranged so that buses serving the eastern sections of both Finch and Ellesmere, connect to the Sheppard / Warden subway terminus.
 
There is absolutely no sense in spending $800 million+ on a project that by the TTC's own estimation will eventually be replaced by another project that would cost no more than $2 billion if we just built it in the first place.

If the DRL is built and run up Don Mills, an excellent yard could be made at the SW corner of Don Mills and the 401...unfortunately, I think the city wants to fully and stupidly squander the site by building an arena and hundreds of surface parking spots. A property or two in the industrial land between Kennedy and STC could be acquired to make another yard.

Those are all excellent ideas.

The problem with Metrolinx pushing for a subway on Sheppard is that the TTC will get them all tied up in knots. Everybody knows that extending the subway to Scarborough Centre is a sensible project that would be well used. That's why the TTC wants to bypass Scarborough's major node in favour of a much longer line out to farmland. If Metrolinx pushes for a subway, the TTC will say that of course it will have to run out to Meadowvale. An LRT to Meadowvale doesn't make sense, let alone a subway, so they'll be able to kill it that way.
 
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Also, there's at least a dozen major arterials that desperately need infrastructural transit improvements before the eastern half of Sheppard East...these hundreds of millions of dollars can and should be put to better use. Money is being thrown at Malvern to spite Mel Lastman's ambition. Too bad that SimCity planning has won out over common sense.
 
There is absolutely no sense in spending $800 million+ on a project that by the TTC's own estimation will eventually be replaced by another project that would cost no more than $2 billion if we just built it in the first place.

Potentially $200M is for subway tunnel and station (consumers road) OR subway tunnel only.

Another good chunk of that is past Kennedy road which would not be replaced with a subway if the subway went to SCC.


Replacing $400M worth of infrastructure after 20 years is reasonable. Sheppard subway operational subsidies will easily run that high in that amount of time.

Replacing it within a decade would suck. York U busway makes sense (operationally breaks even after a handful of years) but Sheppard LRT probably not.
 

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