Transit City Plan

[Solid Snake]

What on earth does that mean? It sounds like "based on a few observations of LRT implementations we expect the project to be mismanaged, over budget, late, and not thought out, but miraculously if subway is chosen all of a sudden everything will be properly managed, on budget, on time, well thought out, and heck people will even show up to give it free money. The LRT will pulled by a horse, but a subway will use dilithium crystals and warp engines."

Spadina expansion seems to be on time
Was Sheppard Subway extension late or mismanaged? you tell me

I hope it wasn't news to you that a subway outperforms LRT. The issue here was ridership, not performance. There's a reason Paris not only have over 12 lines but are planning more even if they are building LRT lines (That are not that much faster than ST.Clair)

 

[jje1000]

Truth be told Ford's real issue is taking up road space/traffic conflicts, Van or Cgy style LRT he supports

http://twitter.com/#!/PeterMilczyn

 

[EnviroTO]

LRT Cons:
1) Subways also last for 100 years unlike LRT which needs constant replacement every few years.
2) A surface ROW will slow down emergency vehicles.
3) Will have trouble with snow.
4) Will increase congestion.
5) It's a union plot to protect jobs.

1) Wrong. The subways are constantly being maintained. They just don't do it as one massive street replacement project. The TTC stops service at night to allow this maintenance, sometimes early.
2) Wrong. The ROWs on Spadina and Queens Quay are used by the emergency vehicles and they whip past all the congestion.
3) Wrong. The streetcars don't get stuck in the snow and slip the way buses, especially articulated ones, do. When the streetcars are impacted by snow it is actually because something else is stuck in its path. With a dedicated ROW that shouldn't be an issue.
4) No loss of lanes is planned. There should be no greater congestion.
5) Buses on the route would employ more people. The more people that fit on a vehicle the less drivers per passenger. The less indoor stations, the less maintenance and fare collection staff you need. Buses would employ more people and that is what exists now.

 

[EnviroTO]

Spadina expansion seems to be on time
Was Sheppard Subway extension late or mismanaged? you tell me

But it is irrelevant. Construction isn't on time because it is a subway. There is no relationship.

I hope it wasn't news to you that a subway outperforms LRT. The issue here was ridership, not performance. There's a reason Paris not only have over 12 lines but are planning more even if they are building LRT lines (That are not that much faster than ST.Clair)

They aren't talking about speed or passengers. GO trains outperform subways if that is the goal... everything must be a GO train because they are faster and carry more? No, they are talking about "management" being better, and "international attention" which says nothing about transit speed or capacity. Explain how choosing a subway results in "detailed consideration of life-cycle costs". And why would an investors be "potential ... partners to subsidize construction costs"? Don't they have some hot stocks to buy somewhere? The only way an investor would invest is with a high degree of certainty that there would be a good return on investment and considering they wouldn't own the thing they are building it would need to be in the contract to suck money from taxpayers for many years after the subway was built. The whole appendix is fluff. No wonder they don't want to publish it.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

http://twitter.com/#!/PeterMilczyn

Interesting.

 

[Juan_Lennon416]

We also have to see whether Premier McGuinty receives support from the NDP for his latest budget.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

CN:

Not sure if it is same Joanne Kennelly:

http://ca.linkedin.com/pub/jo-kennelly/a/205/656

Tony Clement's policy director. Good lord.

Truth be told Ford's real issue is taking up road space/traffic conflicts, Van or Cgy style LRT he supports

Geez, didn't we figure that out from day one? It's nothing to do with transit and the quality thereof, and all to do with roads/traffic.

AoD

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

The report is out:

http://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2012/cc/bgrd/backgroundfile-45908.pdf

AoD

 

[rm20010]

http://twitter.com/#!/PeterMilczyn

Calgary has trains running on routes that a) intersect vehicular traffic at crossings, and b) does run mixed with buses on a street, from what I was told. Doesn't sound too different to Sheppard, although with many crossings.

 

[rbt]

LRT Cons:
1) Subways also last for 100 years unlike LRT which needs constant replacement every few years.

Really? Have you ever looked at a TTC capital budget?

Signals, track, concrete rehabilitation, tunnel liner replacement, electrical system replacement, networking replacement/upgrades, communication equipment replacement, concrete rehabilitation, bridge repair, ...

Very little in a subway lasts 50 years let alone 100. Rochester even found out that the dirt won't stay out of the hole for 100 years without frequent maintenance.

100 year old subway is a bit like Russians having 100 year old shoes. The design didn't change but nearly every component within the thing has been replaced many times over.

 

[Electrify]

http://twitter.com/#!/PeterMilczyn

If he supports Calgary styled LRT, then that is what he should be pushing for! As the plans are currently, the only difference between the two is that Calgary would have less stops. It is clear that his subway isn't going to happen, so if he really cares about fast transit, he should work to try and make the LRT as fast as possible.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

From the Globe:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...r-subways-voters-dont-want-it/article2371843/

Neither here nor there.

AoD

 

[CDL.TO]

St. Clair is a strretcar route nothing more nothing less. TC is an LRT regardless of what people think of it. Why? Because LRT vehicles have three thind that streetcars don't........the vehicles can be driven from both ends of the train, can be joined together to form a longer train a longer train, and have doors on both sides of the train. Enough said.

Seeing that "doors on one side" and "can be driven from both ends" are directly related, your two factors aren't even true. Look outside Toronto and you'll find double-ended streetcars joined into trains. Photo. Or how about the IJburg line in Amsterdam? Very "LRT" but uses single-ended vehicles. Photo.

As far as subway/metro/tunneled LRT conversation there is only one difference between what is considered a subway/metro and standard LRT and it has nothing to do with capacity, frequency, or whether or not it runs at grade, elevated, tunneled, or can fly to the money.................they are elctric vehicles that can run potentially automated. If the system has even one level crossing it is not a subway/metro.

Also not true. The Chicago L includes level crossings and no one considers it to be an LRT. Photo.

End of that conversation.

Hardly.

 

[JoeParez]

From the Globe:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...r-subways-voters-dont-want-it/article2371843/

Neither here nor there.

AoD

“No, I’m not increasing taxes. We have a billion dollars. We can... get a shovel in the ground, build at least two to three stations. Let’s stop, you know, talking about it and let’s start doing it.â€

What billion dollars is the Mayor talking about? The $600 million from the Province and $300 million from the Feds? So he'll declare victory on two stations? And wasn't he offered a compromise as such?

 

[jje1000]

And thus in one stroke, Rob Ford has proven that he doesn't have a serious plan for Sheppard.