Earlscourt_Lad
Active Member
Well put SK. Why not finish something that (rightly or wrongly) was started?
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Transit City Plan
- Thread starter 299 bloor call control.
- Start date
W. K. Lis
Superstar
The lines and scheduled construction completions are:
It started me wondering on how the routes would interconnect should a requirement be made to transfer an LRV from Sheppard East to Finch West. Then it dawned on me, the track gauge on the LRT and subway are the same! The problem is the power is overhead on the LRT routes and the third power rail on the subway routes.
They had converted some old PCC streetcars for use a rail-grinding work cars, so I wonder if a power shoe attachment provision is possible for the new LRV's. If connections are possible between the LRT routes and the subway, the subway could be used to transfer vehicles if needed.
• Sheppard East 2012
• Finch West 2013
• Waterfront West 2015
• Eglinton Crosstown 2015
• Don Mills 2016
• Jane 2017
• Scarborough Malvern 2018
• Finch West 2013
• Waterfront West 2015
• Eglinton Crosstown 2015
• Don Mills 2016
• Jane 2017
• Scarborough Malvern 2018
It started me wondering on how the routes would interconnect should a requirement be made to transfer an LRV from Sheppard East to Finch West. Then it dawned on me, the track gauge on the LRT and subway are the same! The problem is the power is overhead on the LRT routes and the third power rail on the subway routes.
They had converted some old PCC streetcars for use a rail-grinding work cars, so I wonder if a power shoe attachment provision is possible for the new LRV's. If connections are possible between the LRT routes and the subway, the subway could be used to transfer vehicles if needed.
ellett44
New Member
just curious, but is the option of the LRT along sheppard running through the existing subway corridor (replacing the subway) possible? this seems to be logical to me as it eliminates the annoying transfers. i'm not a transportation guru so maybe i'm way off base, but i can't move beyond this.
look forward to the responses.
look forward to the responses.
Earlscourt_Lad
Active Member
Question about gauges:
The streetcars were 4' 10-7/8" as opposed to the standard 4' 8-1/2" railway gauge. Is this still the case?
RedRocket191
Senior Member
@ Scarberiankahtru
The problem with bus routes is that you get an extremely low investment from developers. They don't want to invest in something that can be easily removed. Rail is a firm commitment to the corridor, and developers will respond in kind.
If we're looking at spurring development (which we should be, not just at natural ridership growth), then we should look higher than buses, especially in the suburbs. There are countless examples of places around the world where the ridership draw of rail is a much larger than any bus based infrastructure.
Now, I recognize that the larger the rail system the larger the development draw.
@ W.K. Lis
The Sheppard East LRT plan has a surface connection to Don Mills LRT, and the early stages of the Finch West LRT plan also show a connection to the Don Mills LRT.
The problem with bus routes is that you get an extremely low investment from developers. They don't want to invest in something that can be easily removed. Rail is a firm commitment to the corridor, and developers will respond in kind.
If we're looking at spurring development (which we should be, not just at natural ridership growth), then we should look higher than buses, especially in the suburbs. There are countless examples of places around the world where the ridership draw of rail is a much larger than any bus based infrastructure.
Now, I recognize that the larger the rail system the larger the development draw.
@ W.K. Lis
The Sheppard East LRT plan has a surface connection to Don Mills LRT, and the early stages of the Finch West LRT plan also show a connection to the Don Mills LRT.
Hipster Duck
Senior Member
Malvern. Yes. I heard about that place on City TV once. Maybe if those kids got streetcars they wouldn't need to shoot each other in the schoolyard.
Wait! Do you know how many murders there were in Malvern last year? Seven. Do you know how many there were in Vanauley walk? One. What do the project dwellers at Vanauley have that Malvernites don't? You guessed it! LRT! Coincidence? I don't think so.
Well, I think that just about settles it. Let's get some shovels and start digging, but not too deep - we don't want to be building a subway, you know.
scarberiankhatru
Senior Member
Agincourt would turn into a mini-Dubai if the subway were extended, but using a billion dollar streetcar line to improve the lives of Malvern youth is more important...that's because 1 Malvernite is worth at least 3 Agincourters (but only 0.8 Jane & Finchers).
There won't be any redevelopment in Malvern. The dream that streetcars plus suburban arterials magically equals Queen West is, quite honestly, delusional. Unlike proper Avenues fodder, Sheppard in Malvern is mostly lined with backyards. Yet, destroying a stable neighbourhood for the sake of adding streetcars is a real possibility with people like Miller, Giambrone, and Munro running the show. They're so anti-subway that the official plan is being rewritten.
But maybe you're talking about the stretch of east Agincourt between Midland and Markham that's lined with industrial lands and strip malls. A Rocket bus would compete with a streetcar here and be a cheap and effective transit fix, but it's not like Transfer City is concerned with improving transit. Apparently, we must have streetcars because a) we can't afford subways and b) we need to get rid of buses. Both are false. The notion that redevelopment only occurs when rails are added to an area is not at all based on reality.
Toronto has managed to build an entire city of high-rises nowhere near rails. Once you factor out developments that will occur no matter how bad transit is (such as Tridel's Mondeo condos, which are nowhere near rails...and I could mention a hundred other projects), there simply will not be any streetcar-triggered redevelopment along Sheppard...redevelopment will occur through rezoning and other developer-friendly policies, not adding streetcars! A subway extension would trigger genuinely new construction, though...I don't know how someone can claim to support using transit to bolster redevelopment and be opposed to extending the Sheppard subway through a veritable forest of existing and future towers.
Besides, with improved rail service in the Stouffville and Midtown corridors, plus the SRT extension, plus the Morningside streetcar, plus LRT candidates in arterials like McCowan and Markham, the *magical* rail access you're advocating can still easily reach the redevelopable stretches of Sheppard even if the road gets a Malvern Rocket rather than a $1+ billion streetcar line.
There won't be any redevelopment in Malvern. The dream that streetcars plus suburban arterials magically equals Queen West is, quite honestly, delusional. Unlike proper Avenues fodder, Sheppard in Malvern is mostly lined with backyards. Yet, destroying a stable neighbourhood for the sake of adding streetcars is a real possibility with people like Miller, Giambrone, and Munro running the show. They're so anti-subway that the official plan is being rewritten.
But maybe you're talking about the stretch of east Agincourt between Midland and Markham that's lined with industrial lands and strip malls. A Rocket bus would compete with a streetcar here and be a cheap and effective transit fix, but it's not like Transfer City is concerned with improving transit. Apparently, we must have streetcars because a) we can't afford subways and b) we need to get rid of buses. Both are false. The notion that redevelopment only occurs when rails are added to an area is not at all based on reality.
Toronto has managed to build an entire city of high-rises nowhere near rails. Once you factor out developments that will occur no matter how bad transit is (such as Tridel's Mondeo condos, which are nowhere near rails...and I could mention a hundred other projects), there simply will not be any streetcar-triggered redevelopment along Sheppard...redevelopment will occur through rezoning and other developer-friendly policies, not adding streetcars! A subway extension would trigger genuinely new construction, though...I don't know how someone can claim to support using transit to bolster redevelopment and be opposed to extending the Sheppard subway through a veritable forest of existing and future towers.
Besides, with improved rail service in the Stouffville and Midtown corridors, plus the SRT extension, plus the Morningside streetcar, plus LRT candidates in arterials like McCowan and Markham, the *magical* rail access you're advocating can still easily reach the redevelopable stretches of Sheppard even if the road gets a Malvern Rocket rather than a $1+ billion streetcar line.
RedRocket191
Senior Member
I was not talking about any corridor in particular.
I was making a general statement about choice of technology.
Express buses don't attract as much ridership and development as anything on rails.
I was making a general statement about choice of technology.
Express buses don't attract as much ridership and development as anything on rails.
scarberiankhatru
Senior Member
Well, that's constructive.
Rainforest
Senior Member
It would be great if it was so. However, I anticipate that major resistance kicks in once the details of how to pay for those become available. Almost cetrainly, that would be new or increased taxes, something that the good citizens of GTA tend to dislike.
You are right. I had recalled the list of Sheppard extention stations from some newspaper, and that list did not include Sheppard / Kennedy (the line tilted towards Progress Ave after Warden). However, now I looked at http://transit.toronto.on.ca/images/subway-5110-02.jpg, and found Kennedy North station, still at Sheppard.
Anyway, the subway (just to STC) will cost more. The price tag as of 5-7 years ago was 1.5 billion, not sure if that includes rolling stock. Add inflation, and look at probably 1.8 or 2 billion.
The "subway to Kennedy plus Rocket bus further east" combo is a reasonable option for that route, but not necessarily better than LRT, the latter being substantially cheaper. I assume the LRT will be about as fast as Rocket bus during peak hours (LRT has more stops, but less obstruction from traffic). So, the difference in travel time for those going towards Yonge will be around 5-7 min (slower LRT versus faster subway between Kennedy and Don Mills).
Moreover, if the frequent REX service on the Stoufville or Seaton GO line does materialize and Agincourt becomes a major transfer point, then having higher capacity (LRT versus bus) east of it will be a major advantage. The "future densification" argument is often used to support subway construction, but it applies to LRT as well (to some degree).
I agree that "Morningside-Malvern" streetcar is a bad idea, hopefully it will be reconsidered.
The Finch and Neilson bus improvements are not just for Malvern, they are for the overall Scarborough network and just happen to terminate in Malvern. Likewise, the Midtown GO line won't be established just to serve Malvern, but if the route is created anyway, why not add a station near Malvern.
It is a good question, where Sheppard LRT should terminate in the east. Obviously it will be underused around Morningside or Meadowvale. But I guess they want to avoid another transfer by extending the LRT that far.
Technically / fiscally, this is not such a bad idea. Let's say we are losing say 200 million by building LRT from Don Mills to Kennedy first, and replacing it with subway in 20 years. But postponing the spending of extra 800 million by those 20 years, we save on the interest service cost. At 6% less 3% inflation, the effective interest is 3%, or 480 million in 20 years.
Political feasibility may be a problem, indeed.
Well, I got that 401 REX idea from Metrolinx papers, not sure how sound it is. But even if it is a complete rubbish, two other alternative routes for Sheppard subway extention exist: to Kennedy / Agincourt but not to STC, or tilting north-east from Don Mills and continuing along Finch E.
Voltz
Senior Member
scarberiankhatru,
The projected cost of the Sheppard east line is now around $850 million, INCLUDING VEHICLES, (but not yards). The increase was from the underground section from don mills to consumers and a higher number of vehicles required. Add another $100 to $150 million for extending the subway to consumers
In many other North American cities LRT construction has led to fairly large development levels, your argument that "streetcars" do not lead to any development is nonsense, and so is this one "Agincourt would turn into a mini-Dubai if the subway were extended". A slight exaggeration don’t you think?
I am still not convinced that the subway should be extended just because it is there, rider ship projections do not justify the massive cost. Nor will extending it magically lead to the high rider ship levels on the other subway lines, simply because Sheppard (and eglinton as well) does not have the massive downtown employment area.
If the sheppard LRT where to be extended westward through the subway(if that is even possible) and on to downsview, or up to finch west, then the whole "transfer city" argument goes out the window.
The projected cost of the Sheppard east line is now around $850 million, INCLUDING VEHICLES, (but not yards). The increase was from the underground section from don mills to consumers and a higher number of vehicles required. Add another $100 to $150 million for extending the subway to consumers
In many other North American cities LRT construction has led to fairly large development levels, your argument that "streetcars" do not lead to any development is nonsense, and so is this one "Agincourt would turn into a mini-Dubai if the subway were extended". A slight exaggeration don’t you think?
I am still not convinced that the subway should be extended just because it is there, rider ship projections do not justify the massive cost. Nor will extending it magically lead to the high rider ship levels on the other subway lines, simply because Sheppard (and eglinton as well) does not have the massive downtown employment area.
If the sheppard LRT where to be extended westward through the subway(if that is even possible) and on to downsview, or up to finch west, then the whole "transfer city" argument goes out the window.
Evan
Active Member
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eglinton_West_subway
Estimated completion 2015 and it has yet to even been approved?
Estimated completion 2015 and it has yet to even been approved?
W. K. Lis
Superstar
Both subway and streetcar, as well as the new LRT routes, are TTC gauge 4 ft 10⅞ in (1,495 mm). The Scarborough Rapid Transit is standard gauge, 1,435 mm (4 ft 8½ in), so can't be connected as is. That is why, when fully completed, the Transit City LRV vehicles could use the streetcar tracks (except for the current problem of trolley vs. pantograph, which hopefully will be fixed by then).
Dan416
Senior Member
I stand by my earlier polls that proved that the vast majority of respondents preferred Subway over other options on the following corridors: Sheppard East, Eglinton, and Replacing the SRT. Yet the LRT lovers seem to the loudest here. I have no problem with LRT, when it's done right.
As for the paying for vehicles and such on Sheppard, what vehicles? They have the vehicles. How many extra trains would you have to buy? Like one?
As for the paying for vehicles and such on Sheppard, what vehicles? They have the vehicles. How many extra trains would you have to buy? Like one?
scarberiankhatru
Senior Member
Long post ahead......one of these days, you guys are going to run out of "subway legs unaffordable, streetcar legs optimal" mantras to spout, and then we can get down to building subways where subways should go, and LRT where LRT should go (which is not Sheppard), and better bus routes where they should go, and better GO/commuter rail where it should go, etc., instead of wasting billions of dollars in the wrong places. Pretty much every pro-LRT argument people are coming up with on the forum is easily shot down, so unless y'all approach it from different angles, I'm not going to do this again.
Give the public a choice and they'll probably choose [to pay for] the subway extension. And the GTA will only be paying for part of it, anyway.
Using your "logic," buses are cheaper than LRT, so we shouldn't build any rail line on Sheppard, just add more buses. You can estimate the cost of a subway extension at whatever you want and compare it to LRT, but do remember that the final cost of the Sheppard streetcar is not yet known, either.
There's no point reducing everything to X minutes of travel time is worth Y millions of dollars because all of the numbers are estimated...they're just guessing how fast the streetcar will be, there's no Rocket bus on east Sheppard East to compare it to, and final costs of either the subway extension or the streetcar are not yet known. Still, real people *do* care about gaining those X minutes, and the Metrolinx/MoveOntario era means we may no longer have to quibble over Y million, or that spending Y million in one place won't mean cutting Y million from somewhere else.
If N/S rail lines are added or upgraded, there'll actually be fewer people per peak hour riding Sheppard east of Kennedy since they'll be transferring to the various N/S rail lines in large numbers (Morningside, SRT, Stouffville, Midtown, possibly McCowan/Markham) and not riding all the way along Sheppard. Sorry, but the turnover you correctly predict will ensure that high capacity will not be needed on the eastern half of Sheppard East. Just look at all existing or proposed construction sites along Sheppard...the 'future densification' of Sheppard where the subway would run has already begun. Future densification will not happen out east unless entire crescents full of detached houses are razed; they continue to build detached houses in Malvern.
Of course it won't be reconsidered...it goes to underprivileged Malvern!
You're missing the point. The point isn't that the lines are being built just for Malvern, it's that all of these new lines are running *through* Malvern, picking up riders from a limited population base. By the time all the routes like Stouffville, Midtown, Morningside, Markham, Finch, SRT, etc., pick up riders, who's going to be left to use Sheppard in numbers large enough to warrant a mode that can handle several thousand riders per hour? There'll only be several thousand per day...which is firmly in bus territory. There aren't enough people in Malvern to justify extending lines out there when they come at the expense of riders elsewhere. The same is true of the SRT; Malvern riders are the targeted riders for the extension but a Danforth subway extension would help far more people and for less money.
Yeah, they want to avoid a transfer where a small number of people will ride it, but they're keeping the transfer at Don Mills where many thousands will ride it. That's Transfer City for you! Subtract the stretches of Sheppard where the streetcar will be underused and the stretches where a subway makes sense and you're left with the 3km between Midland and Markham...3km that are or will be very well-served by GO, the RT extension, or short bus rides to the RT.
Of course it's a bad and expensive idea to postpone planned construction. Subway costs are rising faster than inflation (Spadina stations are twice as expensive as Sheppard stations but only some of the difference is attributable to inflation).
The option to run part of the way to STC isn't an "alternative route," it's a longer stubway. To be fair, though, running the subway towards but not as far as STC is a good idea since it could always be taken that final step at later date. As for tilting, Finch East is a busy bus route, but it's actually not a good candidate for a subway line. Its three dense nodes (Don Mills, Warden, McCowan) could all be well-served by N/S transit routes, and the remainder of Finch is almost exclusively houses that have no redevelopment potential (unless the city rewrites the official plan, but it could mark any area for redevelopment), home to thousands of riders that could easily be shifted to other routes like GO trains or a longer Sheppard line. The Finch East bus is the most functional large bus route in the entire TTC network...we don't need to fix what isn't broken.
Add this, add that...wake me up when the numbers stop rising, ok?
No, not an exaggeration. The entire Sheppard corridor is awash in developments...tens of thousands of new units in dozens of skyscrapers of dubious architectural quality rising out of the surrounding bungalow wasteland. This will be curtailed so that houses in Malvern can be forcefully transformed into Queen Street for the perceived sake of underprivileged Malvern youth. Streetcars alone do not trigger development; adding transportation capacity and permitting construction does. The minor development bonus Sheppard might gain by building streetcars instead of buses is entirely theoretical and cannot possibly outweigh the potential Agincourt will lose from not extending the subway. Remember, Sheppard isn't an American exurb that's being connected to downtown by a single transit line...the area already has loads of transit and will be cris-crossed by other rail lines, an RT extension, and a grid of full-service bus routes.
Ridership projections are easily manipulated...the numbers that go in reports and up on charette boards are usually the work of a guy with a bias. The ridership will *not* justify streetcars out in Malvern, where ridership will stay in the range easily accommodated by buses. Malvern simply does not and will not have enough people to support all of the transit lines proposed to run through it. It's possible that a streetcar could handle short-term loads east of Don Mills (ridership won't go up as much without a subway extension, and without said extension, there'll be less development) but why would anyone want to build a line that could be overcrowded on day one, let alone in 20 years? Overcrowded at one end, obscenely underused at the other. A subway extension will pay for itself in redevelopment-related taxes and riders in no time. If Transfer City is being explicitly used as a planning/redevelopment tool, why not use a more powerful tool - a subway extension - in a place where skyscrapers are just begging to get built? Ridership in the Sheppard corridor continues to grow. Traffic is really bad on that stretch of Sheppard and a ROW could make it much worse, causing traffic to spill over to the 401 or to Finch (which would affect the city's busiest bus route). Extending the Sheppard subway would not be the highest priority if we had to choose to build one at a time, but we won't need to choose. And if the funding doesn't materialize, it's not like we'll be able to afford a billion dollar streetcar line, either!
How many billions do you want to spend just to prove Transfer City opponents wrong? This'll sound crazy to you, but I support spending money to actually help riders rather than to build a colourful transit map. There's a big difference between removing inconvenient transfers and running every line on into the horizon so that every random suburb to suburb trip can be done in one seat. And that wasn't the only transfer that Transfer City referred to.
Give the public a choice and they'll probably choose [to pay for] the subway extension. And the GTA will only be paying for part of it, anyway.
Using your "logic," buses are cheaper than LRT, so we shouldn't build any rail line on Sheppard, just add more buses. You can estimate the cost of a subway extension at whatever you want and compare it to LRT, but do remember that the final cost of the Sheppard streetcar is not yet known, either.
There's no point reducing everything to X minutes of travel time is worth Y millions of dollars because all of the numbers are estimated...they're just guessing how fast the streetcar will be, there's no Rocket bus on east Sheppard East to compare it to, and final costs of either the subway extension or the streetcar are not yet known. Still, real people *do* care about gaining those X minutes, and the Metrolinx/MoveOntario era means we may no longer have to quibble over Y million, or that spending Y million in one place won't mean cutting Y million from somewhere else.
If N/S rail lines are added or upgraded, there'll actually be fewer people per peak hour riding Sheppard east of Kennedy since they'll be transferring to the various N/S rail lines in large numbers (Morningside, SRT, Stouffville, Midtown, possibly McCowan/Markham) and not riding all the way along Sheppard. Sorry, but the turnover you correctly predict will ensure that high capacity will not be needed on the eastern half of Sheppard East. Just look at all existing or proposed construction sites along Sheppard...the 'future densification' of Sheppard where the subway would run has already begun. Future densification will not happen out east unless entire crescents full of detached houses are razed; they continue to build detached houses in Malvern.
Of course it won't be reconsidered...it goes to underprivileged Malvern!
You're missing the point. The point isn't that the lines are being built just for Malvern, it's that all of these new lines are running *through* Malvern, picking up riders from a limited population base. By the time all the routes like Stouffville, Midtown, Morningside, Markham, Finch, SRT, etc., pick up riders, who's going to be left to use Sheppard in numbers large enough to warrant a mode that can handle several thousand riders per hour? There'll only be several thousand per day...which is firmly in bus territory. There aren't enough people in Malvern to justify extending lines out there when they come at the expense of riders elsewhere. The same is true of the SRT; Malvern riders are the targeted riders for the extension but a Danforth subway extension would help far more people and for less money.
Yeah, they want to avoid a transfer where a small number of people will ride it, but they're keeping the transfer at Don Mills where many thousands will ride it. That's Transfer City for you! Subtract the stretches of Sheppard where the streetcar will be underused and the stretches where a subway makes sense and you're left with the 3km between Midland and Markham...3km that are or will be very well-served by GO, the RT extension, or short bus rides to the RT.
Of course it's a bad and expensive idea to postpone planned construction. Subway costs are rising faster than inflation (Spadina stations are twice as expensive as Sheppard stations but only some of the difference is attributable to inflation).
The option to run part of the way to STC isn't an "alternative route," it's a longer stubway. To be fair, though, running the subway towards but not as far as STC is a good idea since it could always be taken that final step at later date. As for tilting, Finch East is a busy bus route, but it's actually not a good candidate for a subway line. Its three dense nodes (Don Mills, Warden, McCowan) could all be well-served by N/S transit routes, and the remainder of Finch is almost exclusively houses that have no redevelopment potential (unless the city rewrites the official plan, but it could mark any area for redevelopment), home to thousands of riders that could easily be shifted to other routes like GO trains or a longer Sheppard line. The Finch East bus is the most functional large bus route in the entire TTC network...we don't need to fix what isn't broken.
Add this, add that...wake me up when the numbers stop rising, ok?
No, not an exaggeration. The entire Sheppard corridor is awash in developments...tens of thousands of new units in dozens of skyscrapers of dubious architectural quality rising out of the surrounding bungalow wasteland. This will be curtailed so that houses in Malvern can be forcefully transformed into Queen Street for the perceived sake of underprivileged Malvern youth. Streetcars alone do not trigger development; adding transportation capacity and permitting construction does. The minor development bonus Sheppard might gain by building streetcars instead of buses is entirely theoretical and cannot possibly outweigh the potential Agincourt will lose from not extending the subway. Remember, Sheppard isn't an American exurb that's being connected to downtown by a single transit line...the area already has loads of transit and will be cris-crossed by other rail lines, an RT extension, and a grid of full-service bus routes.
Ridership projections are easily manipulated...the numbers that go in reports and up on charette boards are usually the work of a guy with a bias. The ridership will *not* justify streetcars out in Malvern, where ridership will stay in the range easily accommodated by buses. Malvern simply does not and will not have enough people to support all of the transit lines proposed to run through it. It's possible that a streetcar could handle short-term loads east of Don Mills (ridership won't go up as much without a subway extension, and without said extension, there'll be less development) but why would anyone want to build a line that could be overcrowded on day one, let alone in 20 years? Overcrowded at one end, obscenely underused at the other. A subway extension will pay for itself in redevelopment-related taxes and riders in no time. If Transfer City is being explicitly used as a planning/redevelopment tool, why not use a more powerful tool - a subway extension - in a place where skyscrapers are just begging to get built? Ridership in the Sheppard corridor continues to grow. Traffic is really bad on that stretch of Sheppard and a ROW could make it much worse, causing traffic to spill over to the 401 or to Finch (which would affect the city's busiest bus route). Extending the Sheppard subway would not be the highest priority if we had to choose to build one at a time, but we won't need to choose. And if the funding doesn't materialize, it's not like we'll be able to afford a billion dollar streetcar line, either!
How many billions do you want to spend just to prove Transfer City opponents wrong? This'll sound crazy to you, but I support spending money to actually help riders rather than to build a colourful transit map. There's a big difference between removing inconvenient transfers and running every line on into the horizon so that every random suburb to suburb trip can be done in one seat. And that wasn't the only transfer that Transfer City referred to.