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Transit City Plan

Which transit plan do you prefer?

  • Transit City

    Votes: 95 79.2%

  • Ford City

    Votes: 25 20.8%
  • Total voters
    120
ShonTron said:
Here's my new Google Map showing the new stop placement for the Sheppard East line based on the map I saw at the EA Open House.
Click to expand...

Wow, 28 stops between Don Mills and Meadowvale. I wonder if it makes sense to semi-express the eastern part of the route.

Keep close stop spacing between Don Mills and Brimley, where the ridership density is highest.

However, eliminate 8 mid-block stops between Brimley and Meadowvale, to make this line more comfortable to ride and hence more attractive for transfers from the north-south bus routes. The remaining stops would be McCowan, Shorting, Markham Rd., [Progress/SRT terminal], Washburn Way, Neilson, Morningside, Dean Park.

A local bus on 10 or 15 min headways can serve local stops east of Brimley, going to STC in the west. In the east, that bus can go to the Zoo, or to Rouge Hill via Port Union / East Ave.
 
Actually, I think the western part of the route should be more "express" than the eastern part, considering most of the 85/190 ridership is between Kennedy or Brimley and Don Mills.

If they don't add the STC spur, then they've completely vindicated the Transfer City critics. The one concession I've seen was the attempts at mitigating the transfer from subway to LRT.
 
ShonTron said:
Here's my new Google Map showing the new stop placement for the Sheppard East line based on the map I saw at the EA Open House. I came away from the one last week slightly less disillusioned, but my biggest problem is that Transfer City here might only get a few mitigation measures like level transfers at Don Mills (and that the STC spur is merely just a conceptual plan).

TTC Staff and Giambrone are making noise about regional rail/REX as the way to move people quickly downtown, that Transit City has different priorities. If there could be a new stop in Malvern for frequent trains with fares more comparable to TTC than GO (or a hybrid) and improved service on the Stouffville Line, and Sheppard East LRT, it'd be okay.

I still think Sheppard Subway logically should go to Vic Park for now, as the EA is still on the books for that, and is a more logical terminus than Don Mills or even Consumers.
Click to expand...

I agree with going to Vic, but open the door why not one more stop which become 2 than 3 to the point we are almost there, but no real riders to support it. The current subway is an operation money pit now,

TTC and GO needs to get their head around the fact that Rex and local service on GO lines will take away a lot of riders using Yonge line and open up a new market for travel so long the same fare is use in 416 regardless who service it is.
 
I love that argument put out by Munro - that even if the subway is extended to a logical medium-term terminus, that will only get people saying "one more stop from there" and then you've got a full subway!

Then others will demand a subway!

So we can't build this one!

Makes so much sense.
 
^ But we can extend LRT lines on forever, no matter how staggeringly low ridership is on beyond Malvern. Sheppard's price tag must be well over $1 billion by now...
 
A shortcut, a shortcut, my automobile for a shortcut.

The city wants to encourage residents to get out and walk. The transportation department does install new sidewalks on arterial and collector roads which receive the highest priority because they carry the highest volumes of pedestrian and motor vehicle traffic. New sidewalk installations on local neighbourhood streets are only considered for the time being on a request basis, or when a roadway is being reconstructed.

However, I live on a cul-de-sac, which has a sidewalk, but has a wooden fence which separates the road and sidewalk from another road and there is another sidewalk on the other side and down a short knoll. Kids and teenagers are able to climb over the fence, but the elderly can't. The elderly have to walk around the block for a kilometre or so to get around.

There is a school and a bus stop that is now blocked by the fence. Teenagers had years ago punched a hole in the fence and the elderly were able to use the hole to get to the other side. The fence is now rebuilt, but the bureaucrats didn't put in a sidewalk through the fence.

This leads to questions on how neighbourhood residents will be able to get to a Transit City stop. Will sidewalks and other access points be installed on neighbouring streets so we all be able to use them? How will I be able to get to a Transit City stop without having to detour around in the other direction? All Transit City and bus stops must be accessible to all neighbouring streets.
 
I think we should be putting these sidewalks in everywhere. It's little things like this that improve the experience for everyone.
 
Exerts from NRU:

The first of seven environmental assessments for the TTC’s Transit City Light Rail project has been completed. The Sheppard East LRT is estimated to cost at least $655 million to build, though two different options will be considered for connecting the LRT to the subway line. The first option involves having the LRT run underneath Highway 404 and stop directly at an extended subway platform, allowing a quick connection for riders who are switching to the Sheppard subway line. This option is also the less expensive of the two. In the second option the subway line would be extended to an additional stop at Consumers Road where the final stop of the LRT line would be on the surface with passageways connecting the two. This would add significantly to the cost of the construction, increasing it to $775 million.

“We’re seeking EA approval for both of them because on the surface they’re very similar as far as impacts go,” said TTC chief engineer-operations planning Gary Carr. The TTC will examine both options more closely over the summer and a recommendation is expected in the fall.

“They both have pros,” Carr said of the two options, adding that the connection will need to handle approximately 3,000 peak point riders. “We want an excellent transfer to the subway for people that are on the LRT and
the very best transfer is available if the LRT continues to the subway. So that’s clearly a very good design for the majority of our customers on the LRT approaching and leaving Don Mills Station.”

“The subway that was built in stages stopped at a mall right across the 404 from a very large office park,” Carr told NRU, outlining one of the benefits of extending the subway line. “That office park is the largest developable node on the entire 14-kilometre stretch of the Sheppard East LRT. By extending the subway across the 404, you’re helping to create a catalyst for better and denser development in that office park.”

“Even if we take the subway to Consumers we’d still want a good connection there, but it wouldn’t be as good as the LRT going all the way to the subway,” Carr said.

Another issue that arose during the environmental assessment process is the intersection of Sheppard Avenue East with the Stouffville GO line. To avoid a level rail crossing, a goal espoused by the city, a full grade separation would be required.

Some property acquisition might also be required to develop the line properly, as certain sections of the route do not have a full 36-metre right-of-way. In addition to capital costs, the report that accompanied the EA notes that the cost of the 35 vehicles required for the Sheppard line is expected to be $210 million.

The EA was approved at this week’s planning and growth management committee meeting and will be considered by council at its meeting July 15-16.
 
They should get it right the first time and just extend it all the way to STC. But it wouldn't be Transfer City if it weren't for the transfers now would it?
 
haha, good point. Transfer city is a great name for this plan. I think the Sheppard LRT is such a dumb idea. Just finish the subway that you've already spent a billion dollars on. If they wont extend it east, I hope that they'll build the subway west to connect at Downsview. We need less transfers and more connections. Seems like the planners in this city think that no one ever crosses Yonge Street. It's like Toronto's Berlin wall. You must live and work on one side and can never cross. ;)
 
scarberiankhatru said:
^ They're "finishing" the stubway with a streetcar line that will cost over a billion dollars.
Click to expand...

But the streetcar line will reach a lot further east than the subway would. Per the original plan, the subway would tilt off Sheppard at Warden. Yet, the LRT's price tag is lower than the subway's, 650 million versus 1.5 billion per the current estimates. Sure, the actual LRT cost might shoot up, but so might the subway's cost.

I'd rather see LRT on Sheppard E in the near future, and count those spare 850 million towards the Downtown Relief subway, that will certainly sport much greater ridership in the near term.

In the long term, Sheppard E LRT does not preclude the subway's eastward extention. To begin with, the subway could be extended to Warden and then tilt to STC, and the LRT between Don Mills and Warden either dismantled or used for local service.

Moreover, the subway-to-STC plan is rather old, and the route is not necessarily optimal any more. I can think of at least three alternative extention routes:
1) To the Agincourt GO TTC hub (with or without a leg from there to STC).
2) Tilt north, and continue along Finch E.
3) Become a part of 401 Regional Express, with the eastern wing tilting to 401 and running to STC (but with just 1 or 2 stops in between) and then into Durham. Obviously, that means much lower frequency at the outer parts, to the tune of regional rail rather than subway.

Those options should be examined in the context of future demographics / density and the progress of other transit projects. Hence, delaying the Sheppard subway extention, rather then expediting it, might not be such a bad thing.
 
The Sheppard line should cost over $1B, not $650M. If you're going to compare subway and LRT costs, do it right and include stuff like vehicles and maintenance yards...Transfer City has been shady about the real cost of these lines from day one, but there's no need to perpetuate misinformation.

The streetcar line goes further, but so what? Quantity does not equal quality! Service along Sheppard in Malvern, where ridership is lower, could be vastly improved through the addition of Rocket service that connects to the subway around Kennedy. Between the Morningside streetcar, the stupid SRT extension, new service on the Midtown GO line, improved bus service on other routes like Finch or Neilson, how much damned transit service does one sprawlly ward of 100,000 people need? LRT at Sheppard & Meadowvale is extreme overkill, especially when it comes at the expense of reasonable service improvements farther west.

Building the Sheppard LRT most certainly will preclude extending the subway...if they build the streetcar, no one on this forum will be alive to see the subway extended. Who really thinks they'll pack up the streetcars and extend the subway in 20 years? In 50 years? 80 years?

I'm not sure where you think the Sheppard subway was proposed to run...the subway would tilt off Sheppard east of Kennedy, not Warden, where it would serve a potentially significant transit hub at the Stouffville/Midtown GO interchange before connecting with STC. The entire STC to Downsivew corridor is seeing massive amoutns of redevelopment, too, so the ridership base will only markedly increase. Meanwhile, to justify spending that money on a transit line in Malvern that will obviously not be well-used or trigger any development, they're rewriting the official plan. It's all backwards and all political ideology.

Running on the 401 instead of Sheppard is just plain silly...and no one will take the line from Durham when they can take the GO train and shorten their trip by 50%. A couple hundred Rouge-crossing commuters form Pickering deserve a bus route, not a billion dollar streetcar to nowhere.

We don't need to choose one project over another...MoveOntario promised to fund everything and Metrolinx is mulling over almost triple digit billions of dollars of projects.
 
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