Transit City Comeback?

[gweed123]

How about this: I don't particularly care about route choices. Transit City had good points and bad; the Ford gravybahn plan also has good points and bad, and so will whatever plan Mayor Carroll or Micallef or Thompson presents in 2014 (should Ford not be re-elected). For me the bottom line is that we just build something. There's pretty much no higher-order transit investment future generations won't thank us for, so long as they are based on proven technology.

Toronto's list of transit needs is long and only getting longer as each mayor tosses out the plans advanced by the others. What I think is really needed is a gentleman's (or gentlewoman's!) agreement that projects moving through our absurdly long pipeline of approvals, design, and of course construction won't be canceled as a result of elections. If successive mayors (and premiers) honored that, we'd have a shot at a reasonably adequate network within a couple of decades, whatever the specific routes backed by each.

Action for the sake of action is just as unwise as inaction for the sake of 'fiscal responsibility'. They can both have equally damaging effects.

 

[js97]

It's so unfortunate that efficient public transit has been so politicized.

Transit city was more about social engineering than actually moving people. Miller tried to create a corridor similar to Queen/King/College street communities on Sheppard and Eglinton. The flaw: this type of model does not solve the the problem of commuters from the burbs working in the core - which really is what causes congestion.

Give drivers an efficient option ( Think Yonge or Bloor, not Spadina/St Clair) and I think most will take it.

 

[superman]

It's so unfortunate that efficient public transit has been so politicized.

Transit city was more about social engineering than actually moving people. Miller tried to create a corridor similar to Queen/King/College street communities on Sheppard and Eglinton. The flaw: this type of model does not solve the the problem of commuters from the burbs working in the core - which really is what causes congestion.

Give drivers an efficient option ( Think Yonge or Bloor, not Spadina/St Clair) and I think most will take it.

Agreed. If the Sheppard and Eglinton LRTs were built at grade but completely separated like the Mississauga Transitway (thus, rapid transit lines), I don't think Transit City would have gotten the criticism like it did.

 

[Paleo]

It's so unfortunate that efficient public transit has been so politicized.

Transit city was more about social engineering than actually moving people. Miller tried to create a corridor similar to Queen/King/College street communities on Sheppard and Eglinton. The flaw: this type of model does not solve the the problem of commuters from the burbs working in the core - which really is what causes congestion.

Give drivers an efficient option ( Think Yonge or Bloor, not Spadina/St Clair) and I think most will take it.

I'm going to infer that by "efficient option" you mean the biggest possible subway that money can buy. Sheppard is not Yonge or Bloor and Vaughan is not downtown.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

I think so too. Eglinton is pretty much ruled out if we're getting the underground LRT, but I think Finch and Don Mills will go ahead. Jane is a toss-up, Sheppard likely won't go ahead.

When do they start construction? They haven't yet at all and of course Eglinton has retained the tech so it could be above ground.

 

[Chuck]

The subway era is coming to an end? At this very moment, Toronto is expanding the length of it's subway network by approximately 10%. I'd be curious to know how the original cost of the 1950s Yonge subway compared to Ontario's GDP at the time. If we spent the same today percentage wise, how much could we build? I tried figuring this out myself, but couldn't get past the clutter that comes up when you do a google search.

In any case, I agree that Transit City's one size fits all approach would have had a disastrous effect, and I couldn't have put it better myself. To me, the LRT model proposed by Transit City offers very little value to the City of Toronto - it offers minimal travel time or even capacity improvements compared to what BRT could offer, costs substantially more to build, but doesn't come close to the servie offered by the subway. We'd be better off not spending anything on surface trasit in the 416 area, but instead cutting everyone's distance to the nearest subway station in half.

LRT, as proposed by Transit City, would be awesome in the sububan hinterland. I am most familiar with York Region, and would argue that a Transit City line linking Newmarket to the northern terminus of the Yonge line would be just what the area needs - Newmarket, Aurora, and Oak Ridges could get by with a few local stops each, and service could operate at 100 km/hr along several stretches of Yonge between these centres.

 

[spider]

LRT, as proposed by Transit City, would be awesome in the sububan hinterland. I am most familiar with York Region, and would argue that a Transit City line linking Newmarket to the northern terminus of the Yonge line would be just what the area needs - Newmarket, Aurora, and Oak Ridges could get by with a few local stops each, and service could operate at 100 km/hr along several stretches of Yonge between these centres.

And when these people are whisked into the existing Yonge subway they stop dead because the existing subway is crammed now and no prospect exists of this fact going away. Ever.

 

[GenerationW]

I'm going to infer that by "efficient option" you mean the biggest possible subway that money can buy. Sheppard is not Yonge or Bloor and Vaughan is not downtown.

Perhaps he meant the DRL.

 

[Mapleson]

I think that certain elements of Transit City (concepts, individual lines or sections of lines, etc) may return, but I think the plan as a cohesive master plan is dead. Most transit plans in Toronto's history have had common elements to them, it's just the technology choice and specific routing have been a little bit different, as have been the priorities.

The underlying needs will most likely not evaporate, but he specific local conditions will change meaning the technology choice and routing made under other conditions won't still be ideal. So any plan that actually addresses the City's needs will reflect some aspects of Transit City.

I for one find it ironic how it is perceived that the 'right' prefers larger, more expensive, higher order transit projects, while the 'left' prefers cheaper, less glamorous lower order transit.

The whole left-right debate is a fabrication of labeling. The less we reference it the less impact it has on our rational decisions.

While building a subway on Sheppard is ridiculous right now, Transit City would have entrenched the notion of mediocrity for at least a generation, and that would have been devastating for our rapidly growing city.

Better to have delusions of granduer than notions of mediocrity? Spread over the full population and 30 years, Eglinton and Sheppard subways will cost $170 per capita. To build for future with a complete city network of compariable speed and capacity, it'd be over $1200 per year a head. We already are the generation that lived without an Eglinton subway as planned 20 years ago.

Toronto needs a mayor who supports subways as strongly as Ford, but has the common sense to simply swap the Sheppard extension with a DRL. We'd be totally set if such a candidate ever came forward, and unfortunately no such candidate - left or right - presently exists at City Hall. The closest we had to this was Sarah Thomson, and it is a real shame that not enough people recognized this.

I support any idea that fits the needs. I am strongly for a DRL subway, but outside the core it'll be a generation before we need a subway.

 

[Marcanadian]

When do they start construction? They haven't yet at all and of course Eglinton has retained the tech so it could be above ground.

If I'm not mistaken, it begins later this year and won't be finished until 2020.

 

[smallspy]

Since when did an 18km subway line extension constitute as almost nothing?

You're assuming that it will still be built following this coming Provincial election. I for one am not so sure.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[Marcanadian]

^^ What about the Eglinton Crosstown? Is that a lock, or will it Eglinton get screwed again? I hope Ford and Hudak have a good working relationship.

 

[Rainforest]

A new mayor (if we have a new mayor in 2014) will likely have a new transit plan, but elements of Transit City might be included.

In any case, funding is a bug issue. Some funding can be extracted from the Eglinton project. I would un-bery the section between Don Mills and Kennedy; that's 6 km and at least $1.2 billion in savings. I would use that amount to extend the Eglinton line further west beyond Jane; then it certainly reaches Martin Grove, and perhaps even the airport.

But the majority of new proposals (even if they happen to be part of Transit City) would require new funding. I guess that the shopping list would include DRL subway, several LRT lines, and some sort of solution for the Sheppard corridor.

 

[gweed123]

A new mayor (if we have a new mayor in 2014) will likely have a new transit plan, but elements of Transit City might be included.

In any case, funding is a bug issue. Some funding can be extracted from the Eglinton project. I would un-bery the section between Don Mills and Kennedy; that's 6 km and at least $1.2 billion in savings. I would use that amount to extend the Eglinton line further west beyond Jane; then it certainly reaches Martin Grove, and perhaps even the airport.

But the majority of new proposals (even if they happen to be part of Transit City) would require new funding. I guess that the shopping list would include DRL subway, several LRT lines, and some sort of solution for the Sheppard corridor.

By the time the next election rolls around the east section of Eglinton will already be designed and possibly in the early stages of construction. Changing it again would only cause more delays, especially when you're replacing it with a previous design that would need to be updated, and moving the funding to a section of the line that was only engineered preliminarily. More headache and delay than what it's worth.

I think that any new transit plan will leave the Eglinton-Scarborough LRT as is, but maybe add to it on both ends a little bit. I think we're much more likely to see something else proposed on Finch West though. I also think that after the Ford Sheppard Subway is going to come to its natural conclusion (a complete disaster), the next mayor is going to avoid making any promises for Sheppard like it were the plague.

Depending on who the candidate is, we may also see the DRL come to the forefront as well, especially if the candidate is someone like Adam Vaughan (don't know if he explicitly supports the DRL or not, but his political history and leanings would suggest he would be open to the idea). The downtowners are going to feel very neglected after Ford, and a transit plan that benefits them instead of just the suburbs is going to get a lot of support.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

By the time the next election rolls around the east section of Eglinton will already be designed and possibly in the early stages of construction. Changing it again would only cause more delays, especially when you're replacing it with a previous design that would need to be updated, and moving the funding to a section of the line that was only engineered preliminarily. More headache and delay than what it's worth.

I think that any new transit plan will leave the Eglinton-Scarborough LRT as is, but maybe add to it on both ends a little bit. I think we're much more likely to see something else proposed on Finch West though. I also think that after the Ford Sheppard Subway is going to come to its natural conclusion (a complete disaster), the next mayor is going to avoid making any promises for Sheppard like it were the plague.

Depending on who the candidate is, we may also see the DRL come to the forefront as well, especially if the candidate is someone like Adam Vaughan (don't know if he explicitly supports the DRL or not, but his political history and leanings would suggest he would be open to the idea). The downtowners are going to feel very neglected after Ford, and a transit plan that benefits them instead of just the suburbs is going to get a lot of support.

So then we get get the eglinton extended to the airport and Malvern town centre?