Toronto Union Pearson Express | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | MMM Group Limited

[vegeta_skyline]

Clearly you'd have to upgrade budget and number of trainsets.

But there are no plans to do so. The train-sets have already been ordered and crew requirements for the ARL as is will be difficult enough to fulfill. Certainly its not something that would be possible by 2015. I'm just stating the facts and not getting into the hypothetical discussions that seem to dominate this thread.

They've been pretty clear that with 2 tracks for the ARL, there will only be 1 track available for GO Trains until at least 2018.

Not sure where your getting your information from but that is incorrect. Regular GO service will make use of 2 tracks, one of them being shared with the ARL.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

nfitz just curious why should we believe you over vegeta? He works for Metrolinx. You don't.

 

[k10ery]

That's because most of the stations being discussed don't exist period. Also, the ARL service would be hard pressed to run at 30 minute frequency itself if it had to stop at all those new stations. It would be hard pressed to do so with the man power, operation budget and number of trains sets allocated for it.

I think you're missing the point. The ARL model is the wrong model and it will be a waste of the investment in this corridor. This is an opportunity to put a little more money in and get a service that is vastly more useful to Toronto.

 

[nfitz]

But there are no plans to do so. The train-sets have already been ordered and crew requirements for the ARL as is will be difficult enough to fulfill. Certainly its not something that would be possible by 2015. I'm just stating the facts and not getting into the hypothetical discussions that seem to dominate this thread.

I agree. Council however is asking for the province to make plans to do so. Presumably to order more trainsets and add crews. Of course it won't happen ... don't think anyone, even council, does. It's just politics ...

What's silly is we are using such a precious resource for an airport express train for which people are talking daily passenger volumes for the entire line which are on par with a small TTC bus route.

Not sure where your getting your information from but that is incorrect. Regular GO service will make use of 2 tracks, one of them being shared with the ARL.

Ah, I think I assumed wrong. Still, GO has said they can't go to very frequent GO trains with only 3 tracks.

nfitz just curious why should we believe you over vegeta? He works for Metrolinx. You don't.

Where on earth did I say you should believe me over him??????????

Still, the detail around the the lack of ability to go to frequent operation of trains until a 4th track is true whether or not they are sharing operation of one of the ARL tracks.

 

[k10ery]

As I said elsewhere...by 2015 they will have the cabibility to run trains on this line as much as they want....if the will matches that ability and they add 2 stops (Eglinton and Liberty Village) they will have a GO line that makes 6 (not quite the 8 "overkill" but close) within Toronto.

It will have stops at Etobicoke North....Eglinton....Weston......Bloor....Liberty Village....Union. It will link well with all of the East West routes (Eglinton LRT....BD Subway....King and Queen Street Cars....and the YUS subway).

I am not sure what you're saying. There is no work being done on a future station for Eglinton or Liberty Village. Metrolinx has specifically rejected the possibility of a Liberty stop, because they couldn't stop their big commuter trains there. Metrolinx is not in any way committed to building any new stations in Toronto at any future date other than Weston, and they had to be dragged into that one anyway.

 

[TOareaFan]

I am not sure what you're saying. There is no work being done on a future station for Eglinton or Liberty Village. Metrolinx has specifically rejected the possibility of a Liberty stop, because they couldn't stop their big commuter trains there. Metrolinx is not in any way committed to building any new stations in Toronto at any future date other than Weston, and they had to be dragged into that one anyway.

I was saying instead of adding 8 stops to the ARL.....you could add 2 Toronto stops (for a total of 6) to the GO line and have a system of similar functionality that added value to more people.

Whether you are talking about adding 8 stops to ARL or 2 to GO you are trying to convince Metrolinx to add stations which currently don't exist - nor are they currently planned.

 

[TOareaFan]

Ah, I think I assumed wrong. Still, GO has said they can't go to very frequent GO trains with only 3 tracks.

Sincere question here.....has GO said that? I know the Clean Train Coalition has said that is so......but has GO made any announcement about the level of service they can/will offer in 2015?

 

[car4041]

I was saying instead of adding 8 stops to the ARL.....you could add 2 Toronto stops (for a total of 6) to the GO line and have a system of similar functionality that added value to more people.

I wouldn't necessarily say that your proposal and council's proposal have similar functionality -- council wants almost twice as many stops:
- Adding 2 stops to GO would get us Union, Liberty, Bloor, Eglinton, Weston, and Etobicoke North.
- Adding 8 stops to ARL (or local GO, or whatever) would get us Union, Liberty, Bloor, Junction, St. Clair, Eglinton, Jane, Weston, Humber, Etobicoke North, and Woodbine Racetrack.

Council's proposal is for a much more local service.

 

[ShonTron]

GO's plans early on (when Weston opposition began to organize in 2003/2004) called for much less than hourly, two-way, all day service upon immediate completion of the Georgetown South infrastructure, a real crock given all the ARL train movements planned for the same time period. That was one of several reasons why residents were so angered by the plans for the corridor.

Now that Brampton-Union Station bus service is now every 30 minutes from Brampton and Bramalea much of the time (at levels approaching that of Milton's train-bus service). No way would less than hourly, bi-directional train service suffice as a replacement for that.

 

[car4041]

Sincere question here.....has GO said that? I know the Clean Train Coalition has said that is so......but has GO made any announcement about the level of service they can/will offer in 2015?

While I don't know what GO has said, there are obvious limitations to what you can do with 3 tracks. We're talking about express ARL trains every 15 minutes, express GO and VIA trains, and local GO trains. You can't have too many locals if they're sharing tracks with expresses.

 

[vegeta_skyline]

I think you're missing the point. The ARL model is the wrong model and it will be a waste of the investment in this corridor. This is an opportunity to put a little more money in and get a service that is vastly more useful to Toronto.

If all the money being investing in this corridor was solely for the ARL I would be in complete agreement, but that's not the case. What could be said is that the ARL proposal is responsible for spurring on improvements in infrastructure that would have been unlikely without it. It would probably have been many more years before the Weston sub would have been entirely double tracked. Especially the 600ft long 100ft high bridge over the Humber river. The 3 crossings in Weston would not have been grade separated, retaining the 30mph PSO through the entire area. Carlingview, Dennison and possibly Strachan would not have been grade separated retaining several speed restrictions and the loss of improvements in safety. Nor would they have been willing to spend 277 million to grade separate the line at West Toronto. It's because of the ARL proposal that all these improvements are even happening at this time.

I just don't see the ARL as precluding improvements in local service level's if there is that much of a demand for it. And the market will ultimately dictate whether or not there is a demand for the ARL itself. If it turns out that there isn't, then certainly appropriate changes will be made to the service.

 

[ShonTron]

GO has spent considerable money separating the Newmarket and York Subdivisions, as well as the Uxbridge and York Subdivisions, which were both started and completed several years ago. I would suggest that the unrealized plans for a airport rail service only delayed much needed improvements on the Weston Sub/Georgetown corridor. The Weston/CP North Toronto grade separation was on the books for years before the ARL was funded. I will concede that the Weston and Carlingview grade crossings would not have happened without the ARL being pushed ahead.

 

[nfitz]

Sincere question here.....has GO said that? I know the Clean Train Coalition has said that is so......but has GO made any announcement about the level of service they can/will offer in 2015?

GO has been clear. Less than 30 GO trains a day total when service starts (compared to 14 now).

From their website:

On opening day in 2015, there will be an additional 10 GO trains for a total of 29 trains on the Kitchener line. There will also be 140 Air Rail Link shuttles operating from Union Station to Pearson International Airport. The total number of trains including VIA and CN will be approximately 210 at the south end of the rail corridor and 185 north of St. Clair Avenue.

 

[TOareaFan]

GO has been clear. Less than 30 GO trains a day total when service starts (compared to 14 now).

From their website:

On opening day in 2015, there will be an additional 10 GO trains for a total of 29 trains on the Kitchener line. There will also be 140 Air Rail Link shuttles operating from Union Station to Pearson International Airport. The total number of trains including VIA and CN will be approximately 210 at the south end of the rail corridor and 185 north of St. Clair Avenue.

Thanks...had not seen that table before (not sure how I missed it, really)......the words that jump out at me (and presumably other doubting thomases from the NW who have been waiting long times for expanded service) are these....

in the preamble to the table it says "On opening day in 2015, there will be an additional 10 GO trains for a total of 29 trains on the Kitchener line" That is a pretty solid statement and, while it does not create the sort of service I talked about above, would be great news for the commuters on that line.

But you only have to get to the first row in the table to have your doubts raised as that "will be 29 trains" statement is quickly revised to "up to 29".

As a bit of a "math geek" you also do not get much comfort that they show current level at 14 GO Trains....tell you that there will be 10 more and arrive at a new number (whether it is "will be" or "up to") of 29. I have punched in "14 + 10 =" several times now and can't produce "29" as the answer!

May just be a stylistic thing or, even, an error........ but it leaves an uneasy feeling that they may be leaving wiggle room to leave the service as rush hour peak only....after all...."up to 29" could include "14" in its definition!

So, I guess, the "cost benefit" analysis that would need to be done is "which is most cost efficient and, relative to cost, provides benefit to the most......spending additional money revamping the ARL into a local service or spending additional money (that is planned to be spent by 2018 anyway) accelarting the installation of the 4th track so that the GO service can be upped to provide that hybrid local/regional service".

I am not smart enough to know the answer.

 

[TOareaFan]

I wouldn't necessarily say that your proposal and council's proposal have similar functionality -- council wants almost twice as many stops:
- Adding 2 stops to GO would get us Union, Liberty, Bloor, Eglinton, Weston, and Etobicoke North.
- Adding 8 stops to ARL (or local GO, or whatever) would get us Union, Liberty, Bloor, Junction, St. Clair, Eglinton, Jane, Weston, Humber, Etobicoke North, and Woodbine Racetrack.

Council's proposal is for a much more local service.

I get that....but I think those 6 stops are plenty....a sort of hybrid-local service which used its connection to subways/streetcars/lrt to get people out of the downtown....truly local service is provided by those existing services and this line is used to whisk people out of the downtown in a NW direction and they get off when they reach the connection with the local service that takes them to their destination.