Toronto Queens Quay & Water's Edge Revitalization | ?m | ?s | Waterfront Toronto

[scott]

So I bicycled the whole QQ on my way out to the Humber for my bike ride Saturday. I had a few observations:

• I had lots of problems with pedestrians on the trail on the way back. A number of close calls with pedestrians not even looking as they stepped into the path Especially at intersections, people would just stand in the path.
• They need to make it very clear that the bike path is bikes only in this section...no pedestrians, people pushing strollers, etc. Intersections are really poorly marked here.

Not to defend the pedestrians who walked onto the actual bike path, but are they actually doing anything wrong here in the intersections?

From what I saw all the intersections are shared spaces. There really isn't a "bike path". It's why the pavement doesn't continue through the intersections in addition to the various symbols implying the bike path starts/ends.

This is what I was talking about before in that the cyclists seem to think the space is only theirs. Everything in the street design implies that it's a shared space. So please correct me if I'm wrong. But I hope for the sake of the city that I'm correct otherwise it's designed poorly.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

The fact that this even has to be debated indicates poor design.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Honestly, we shouldn't have to babysit everyone - and sometimes overdesigning to eliminate risks (or "negative externalities") will produce sterile environments.

AoD

 

[nfitz]

Yet if the same accident keeps happening other and other, then there is a design failure.

And it's pretty easy to see how they could have done better ... with the signage, road marking, and even the choice of the red lights for the streetcars.

We discussed alternate signals before in another thread - http://urbantoronto.ca/forum/threads/streetcar-and-light-rail-signals.9918/

 

[PinkLucy]

Any cyclists still on the road? Or all on the bike path now?

I've seen a few still on the road, but just a few. I'd say 99.5% are on the path.

 

[muller877]

Not to defend the pedestrians who walked onto the actual bike path, but are they actually doing anything wrong here in the intersections?

From what I saw all the intersections are shared spaces. There really isn't a "bike path". It's why the pavement doesn't continue through the intersections in addition to the various symbols implying the bike path starts/ends.

This is what I was talking about before in that the cyclists seem to think the space is only theirs. Everything in the street design implies that it's a shared space. So please correct me if I'm wrong. But I hope for the sake of the city that I'm correct otherwise it's designed poorly.

I've actually been hit by a bike on Queens Quay prior to the construction project. Was crossing from the south side to the North side at Spadina. Pedestrian light was activated, red light for the bike. Luckily for me I saw her at the last moment and got my feet planted or else I may have cracked my head.

She was 100% at fault when she hit me. She decided to swear at me and then try to leave the scene of a an accident. Luckily for me there were some people that helped me out and stopped her from leaving until the police arrived. I was not seriously hurt...but I was disappointed that the police did not prosecute her...running a red light, careless driving, attempting to do a hit and run, etc.

I'm worried this will happen again with these SHARED spaces at intersections. Will bikes even stop at red lights? Or slow down for pedestrians? How should it be made safer? Maybe rumble strips or speed bumps for the bikes to get them to slow down? (I won't go as far as those gates around the Ex but there needs to be a way to make it safe for pedestrians)

 

[BB ON]

Reaperexpress beat me to it, but here's some helmet hyperlapse of the first (full) day:

First impressions: Wow, it was busy. It's already a massive success in terms of public space. It looks and works great, coming together into a place where everyone wants to be. This stretch feels very European, and hopefully is the model for future development. It's so alien to Toronto that everyone's still trying to figure it out, hopefully the kinks get worked out over time.

One sign of that is that the MUP presently is a meatgrinder. I don't expect this to change. It needs separation from the boardwalk. Right now, fast moving cyclists are at odds with pedestrians crossing everywhere, often without even looking. That legally pedestrians are entitled to use it almost descends into irrelevancy; it would be better off to keep the modes separated for safety and speed.

 

[PinkLucy]

I've actually been hit by a bike on Queens Quay prior to the construction project. Was crossing from the south side to the North side at Spadina. Pedestrian light was activated, red light for the bike. Luckily for me I saw her at the last moment and got my feet planted or else I may have cracked my head.

She was 100% at fault when she hit me. She decided to swear at me and then try to leave the scene of a an accident. Luckily for me there were some people that helped me out and stopped her from leaving until the police arrived. I was not seriously hurt...but I was disappointed that the police did not prosecute her...running a red light, careless driving, attempting to do a hit and run, etc.

I'm worried this will happen again with these SHARED spaces at intersections. Will bikes even stop at red lights? Or slow down for pedestrians? How should it be made safer? Maybe rumble strips or speed bumps for the bikes to get them to slow down? (I won't go as far as those gates around the Ex but there needs to be a way to make it safe for pedestrians)

From what I've seen so far, pedestrians are pretty quickly learning not to stand in the bike path at intersections -- depending on the intersection, the bike path ranges from being very noticeable (the black paving) to barely noticeable (white dots on the bricks). When they realize they're in a bike path, they step out.

I've also noticed that most cyclists were stopping at the lights. However, they often anticipate the green, and heading east, there are a lot of advanced left turns for people turning south -- this could be a problem.

Most bikes also weren't moving very quickly because of sheer volume of people. That is likely to vary according to day of the week/time of day.

 

[Napoleon]

Now you need to take the next step and contact your Councillor and Waterfront Toronto about your concerns.

Thanks for the suggestion. I guess I wasn't quite clear exactly who had jurisdiction over what? Just contact the city councillor for my ward? Is there a point person at Waterfront Toronto to contact?

From what I saw all the intersections are shared spaces. There really isn't a "bike path". It's why the pavement doesn't continue through the intersections in addition to the various symbols implying the bike path starts/ends.

From the design, who would know? I mean at some intersections there's actually a green light specifically for cyclists…I take that to mean that I should expect to have a normal right of way to proceed straight without cars, pedestrians, or streetcars crossing the intersection perpendicular to me. Likewise, when I have a red light as a cyclist, I stop for the pedestrians crossing. Given the level of traffic on the cycle path, I don't really think it's realistic for the intersection to be a fully shared area….there needs to be some prioritization.

Was crossing from the south side to the North side at Spadina. Pedestrian light was activated, red light for the bike.

This is actually also an ambiguous situation at Bathurst right now. There is no dedicated cyclist light there, and pedestrians get an advanced walk for E-W. Most cyclists are continuing with the pedestrian phase to cross from the bollards region to the cycle track, which shouldn't present any conflicts. This is also how traffic signals usually function in Montreal. Now, if she ran a red light perpendicular to you, that's her fault completely.

I'm worried this will happen again with these SHARED spaces at intersections. Will bikes even stop at red lights? Or slow down for pedestrians? How should it be made safer? Maybe rumble strips or speed bumps for the bikes to get them to slow down? (I won't go as far as those gates around the Ex but there needs to be a way to make it safe for pedestrians)

Bikes were actually generally stopping at the red lights labeled for cyclists…I was impressed. Rumble strips and speed bumps are a terrible idea. For normal commute hours, there probably won't be that many pedestrians, and we should let bikes go at a normal speed. Now, if we clarify priority at intersections, and pedestrians don't walk on the path, it will be completely safe.

 

[11th]

..

• I had lots of problems with pedestrians on the trail on the way back. A number of close calls with pedestrians not even looking as they stepped into the path Especially at intersections, people would just stand in the path.

• Lights at intersections desperately need to be improved...as others have said, they're often not in a totally logical place, and they all look the same. The bicycle lights should be green and red bike images. The transit lights should look different. And they need red arrows instead of red disks with "no right on red" signs.

- Because we are taught to wait along the side of a road when waiting to cross, and to a lot of people, asphalt/cement says "road" - not helping when the sidewalk they are supposed to stay on has the same surface treatment as bike path at intersections.

- I don't think Ontario has red arrows in use for traffic signals.

 

[Tuscani01]

From the design, who would know? I mean at some intersections there's actually a green light specifically for cyclists…I take that to mean that I should expect to have a normal right of way to proceed straight without cars, pedestrians, or streetcars crossing the intersection perpendicular to me. Likewise, when I have a red light as a cyclist, I stop for the pedestrians crossing. Given the level of traffic on the cycle path, I don't really think it's realistic for the intersection to be a fully shared area….there needs to be some prioritization.

When they were giving the neighbourhood tours of the new Queens Quay, they explained the rules of the trail and how the mixing zones work. Since these areas are the most likely areas for cyclists to encounter pedestrians or vehicles, its their duty to slow down and pay attention, even with a green light. The point of ending the trail markings is to make sure that everyone (drivers, pedestrians, cyclists, etc) pays attention when they get to the zone.

Q. How will pedestrians avoid conflicts with cyclists?
There are separate spaces devoted to pedestrians, cyclists, cars and TTC – defined by paving material (Paleo-Tec versus granite versus asphalt), pavement markings (elephant feet, cross lines, stop bars, cross lines) and signs.

That said, the “mixing zones,” were not designed to keep these different users completely separate. Both pedestrians and cyclists will have to be cautious and courteous at intersections and driveways.

- Source: Waterfront Toronto

 

[the lemur]

I haven't encountered any conflicts yet, riding in either direction. I've been stopping at the blue boxes/stop lines when there's a red for bikes and pedestrians seem to know when they can start crossing the trail on their own signal. No one randomly wandering onto the trail either.

 

[Napoleon]

I haven't encountered any conflicts yet, riding in either direction. I've been stopping at the blue boxes/stop lines when there's a red for bikes and pedestrians seem to know when they can start crossing the trail on their own signal. No one randomly wandering onto the trail either.

The first Saturday it was open, with multiple events happening as well, was probably worse than average. At commute hours, it's been much better.

 

[the lemur]

The first Saturday it was open, with multiple events happening as well, was probably worse than average. At commute hours, it's been much better.

I drove on it eastbound late Saturday afternoon, just to see how terrible it might be. It was fine.

 

[salsa]

What a POS, but I saw it coming.