Toronto Monde | 149.95m | 44s | Great Gulf | Moshe Safdie

Ramako said:
Within the context of this building boom, this proposal was one the first of the current generation of proposals that I had thought, by virtue of timing alone, had a very poor chance of getting sold before the condo market cooled off. It's amazing to see that it's now close to construction. In fact, I had the same feeling when Bisha and Theatre Park launched, and they're also either under construction or close to it. It just goes to show how resilient and sustained this boom has been.

Part of me still looks at amazing proposals like Picasso and Massey Tower and thinks that we'll be lucky if the condo market holds up long enough for them to sell and if the credit market holds up long enough for them to get built... perhaps because those projects just seem to good to be true.
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I read that Picasso is near 80% sold. Isn't that the territory developers like to be in to begin costruction? Are there other factors that could result in them not being built?

Numbers for Massey aren't out yet, but Brian Persaud has been saying things are moving well there (understandably so given location/renders etc). What's crazy is how other buildings have launched and sold really well so quickly, like The Bond, 1Thousand Bay and most recently, INDX. One exception seems to be Monde, last we heard things haven't been selling as well.
 
Southcore said:
I read that Picasso is near 80% sold. Isn't that the territory developers like to be in to begin costruction? Are there other factors that could result in them not being built?

Numbers for Massey aren't out yet, but Brian Persaud has been saying things are moving well there (understandably so given location/renders etc). What's crazy is how other buildings have launched and sold really well so quickly, like The Bond, 1Thousand Bay and most recently, INDX. One exception seems to be Monde, last we heard things haven't been selling as well.
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The credit market is a factor. The original 1 Bloor proposal was sold out, but Bazis couldn't get financing to actually construct it because of the massive credit crunch at the start of the Great Recession. Lehman Brothers was supposedly going to finance it before they got wiped out. Hopefully we don't face another credit crunch if, say, one of the big European countries goes under.

My other fear with respect to Massey is whether it actually gets approved by staff, or whether it gets substantially shortened for fear of shadows being cast on Yonge-Dundas Square.
 
Southcore said:
I read that Picasso is near 80% sold. Isn't that the territory developers like to be in to begin costruction? Are there other factors that could result in them not being built?

Numbers for Massey aren't out yet, but Brian Persaud has been saying things are moving well there (understandably so given location/renders etc). What's crazy is how other buildings have launched and sold really well so quickly, like The Bond, 1Thousand Bay and most recently, INDX. One exception seems to be Monde, last we heard things haven't been selling as well.
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That's terrible news for waterfront Toronto ... everything is based on selling all the condo units.

Do you know what % sold Monde is ?
 
Monde's pricing is way too high for the area. The neighborhood is very underdeveloped.
The properties to the south and west will block water and city views.
 
metroTO said:
Monde's pricing is way too high for the area. The neighborhood is very underdeveloped.
The properties to the south and west will block water and city views.
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I do see your point to a certain degree.

Have you seen the 'new' hi-way 7 ? Now that's huge with the lanes added on both sides.
 
How much would the premium paid for Safdie have contributed to the higher cost? If this succeeds, with Pier 27 underway then the area is off to the races. I will be profoundly disappointed if Monde doesn't proceed.
My hunch is that it will be a fantastic long-term investment because its still very close to downtown and the area has a great assortment of buildings.
Perhaps if the city moved forward on the refurbishment of Lakeshore - trees etc it would reassure buyers.
 
buildup said:
How much would the premium paid for Safdie have contributed to the higher cost? If this succeeds, with Pier 27 underway then the area is off to the races. I will be profoundly disappointed if Monde doesn't proceed.
My hunch is that it will be a fantastic long-term investment because its still very close to downtown and the area has a great assortment of buildings.
Perhaps if the city moved forward on the refurbishment of Lakeshore - trees etc it would reassure buyers.
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I think its 30/40% sold ... while that's pretty bad in Toronto's market today, for only about 3/4 months overall that's not too bad. This is a huge building as well I believe.
 
taal said:
That's terrible news for waterfront Toronto ... everything is based on selling all the condo units.

Do you know what % sold Monde is ?
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Last check it was low, like 30%. I think there was a mention of it in the Monde thread. That was a little while ago so things may have changed. Only thing is it seems like these days the launches are so flavor of the month that people just move on to the next project. 1Thousand Bay and then INDX was huge and now Casa II will be on March 31st (that'll be nuts), then rinse and repeat with Ten York, Noir, etc. most these projects are selling quickly at the VVVIP stage.

I agree with AG that the area needs a few years, but so does say, the West Donlands, and River City 2 was priced way cheaper than Monde ($550 PSF vs ~$700 PSF). I don't think the spec'ers care it's a Safdie designed building and not every unit is having a lake view, so that argument for paying more isn't valid either. Anyway, this isn't the Monde thread...

Ramako thanks for the explanation re: why a project could stall even with strong sales. Hopefully nothing happens drastically, but the boom has to at least slow at some point.
 
Design-wise, Monde has poor Feng Shui with its spikey projecting balconies, jagged profiles and triangular tower footprint, so it's probably not appealing to the Asian buyers. Monde will be the first condo development in the area, so future residents will be putting up with a lot of nearby construction for a long time.

Most of the current hot condo sales are happening either on Yonge Street or in the Entertainment District, where you are steps to transit, shopping, dining and bars. If I was an investor I would want to buy in a well established area with excellent area amenities where there is a high demand for rentals.
Karma hits the mark for location and it's located right between U of T and Ryerson.
 
One positive thing about Monde only being 40% sold out is that it appears the initial release was not tremendously bought by a lot of investors - which allows for a lot of time for true end users to buy into the building.

Southcore said:
I agree with AG that the area needs a few years, but so does say, the West Donlands, and River City 2 was priced way cheaper than Monde ($550 PSF vs ~$700 PSF). I don't think the spec'ers care it's a Safdie designed building and not every unit is having a lake view, so that argument for paying more isn't valid either.
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Monde's pricing in the podium is at $600/sqft, Rivercity's prices were close to $600/sqft. It's a no brainer to buy at Monde at that price instead of RC as it's closer to the downtown core and in a waterfront neighbourhood - and being an Intelligent Community.
 
$watkins$ said:
- and being an Intelligent Community.
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Nothing intelligent about it untill, "all is said and done" ... also doubt anyone (with whats available in established parts of Toronto) wants to jump from the frying pan into the fire on this one, maybe first time buyers

I predict, even though sales will be painfully slow....it will eventually sell out and get built
...give it 5-10 years and people will wish they had bought there
 
We went to look at the presentation centre last two weekends ago -- not a lot of traffic, but beautifully done. SW corner will have views across Sherbourne Commons forever, and higher floors will see over the top of Hines' East Bayfront (highest there will be 15 floors, I believe). This will be a beautiful project. It'll get built, even if it takes a little extra time to sell, because end users will be happy to buy into this project (even if specs don't), IMHO.
 
Riverdale Rink Rat said:
We went to look at the presentation centre last two weekends ago -- not a lot of traffic, but beautifully done. SW corner will have views across Sherbourne Commons forever, and higher floors will see over the top of Hines' East Bayfront (highest there will be 15 floors, I believe). This will be a beautiful project. It'll get built, even if it takes a little extra time to sell, because end users will be happy to buy into this project (even if specs don't), IMHO.
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I'm not an investor by any stretch but I'd love to buy into this project personally !
I do think the potential long term gains are very high ... a little similar to the distillery district years ago.

Having said that I do think it should have been priced a little better, it seems a little too expensive.
 
March 20, 2012

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