Toronto Kipling Station Transit Hub | ?m | 2s | Metrolinx | SAI

Cloverdale is being used as that is what the station name will be.

Under the plans for the south side, a new GO Station and bus terminal is plan for the area of Honeydale and Food Basic sites and the land is already set aside for them.

The original plan for the extension call for the subway to swing south to Sherway Mall Area and then backup to the north side of CP Corridor. It would run in the corridor on the surface to Dixie Rd and that idea is dead now because of GO Transit.

Since there needs to be 4 tracks in CP Corridor for GO Transit, no room on the surface to put the subway beside it. Then the wrong location.

The area between 427 and Dixie Rd has been a blight for over 30 years. With good urban planning, this area will support 300,000 residents and employment jobs. By running the subway along Dundas, it will offer the transit needs for this area come in the next 50-100 years.

There is only one person on Mississauga Council calling for a subway as an east-west and from ward 5. The Mayor doesn't see a subway in her time in Mississauga and it needs to be an east-west line.

Unlike Vaughan and York Region, Mississauga is not going to go into real debt to build a subway where ridership is better service by BRT and LRT in the first place. They turn down the (Free)? RT in the 80's to Sq One.

Metrolinx has already down graded the Dundas LRT line east of Hurontario to an BRT that will offer continue service to Watertown. I love to see an LRT going to the 403, but Dundas west of Hurontario is so low density that it can't support one for 50 years. I have call for the 512 to end up in Stoney Creek, but not going to happen now. Halton will never support an LRT at all and will have a real issue supporting an BRT in the first place.

Under the Big Move, Cloverdale is supposed to be the Gateway Hub and I support it. It will allow faster access to 427 as well reduce the deadheading of buses for both TTC and Mississauga Transit. Well include GO Transit, Brampton and YRT that still to come to Kipling. It will reduce the amount of cars using Dundas to get to Kipling or Islington parking lots.

All transit Hubs, terminals or stations "Must" have development on top of them.

If TTC had approved the request back in 2005 & 8 by the ward councilor who is now MPP, the extension would be open and relocation underway at far less cost than what is happening.

The plan Regional Hub is only good for 15 years at Kipling once built.
 
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Thanks for the insight drum! I wasn't aware that the land has already been set aside for the new terminal at Honeydale, that's great news. And I agree that for geographic referencing purposes, using "Cloverdale" is probably more recognizable to most people.

A subway extension to Honeydale (using that name for consistency with my previous posts, and to specify the station location on the south side of Dundas) could be done pretty inexpensively.

Your point about the Dundas corridor to Dixie is also very true. IMO, the BRT should be sufficient for the short to medium term, and hopefully will allow for some redevelopment and densification along the corridor. High ridership on the BRT line would likely justify a jump straight to subway, which I would ultimately terminate at Hurontario & Dundas (with the station box on an angle to serve Cooksville GO as well).

But there's no sense in spending that kind of money on what would likely be overkill for at least a couple decades, especially with many more pressing transit priorities to spend that funding on. If Mississauga is going to be building any subway tunnels, it should be a GO RER tunnel between Cooksville and Square One.
 
gweed123 said:
Thanks for the insight drum! I wasn't aware that the land has already been set aside for the new terminal at Honeydale, that's great news. And I agree that for geographic referencing purposes, using "Cloverdale" is probably more recognizable to most people.

A subway extension to Honeydale (using that name for consistency with my previous posts, and to specify the station location on the south side of Dundas) could be done pretty inexpensive
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Definitely so. Honeydale Mall has been closed for a couple years now. About five years ago, the owner offered up land on the site for free to allow the TTC to build the station. I know that they are looking at rezoning the land to allow for condo residential towers, so it was probably a bit of a carrot to the city to allow that to happen with relative ease.
 
wopchop said:
Definitely so. Honeydale Mall has been closed for a couple years now. About five years ago, the owner offered up land on the site for free to allow the TTC to build the station. I know that they are looking at rezoning the land to allow for condo residential towers, so it was probably a bit of a carrot to the city to allow that to happen with relative ease.
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Good point. It will also allow the entire complex to be designed with a cohesiveness, instead of being a patchwork of towers added on top after the fact (see: pretty much every entrance to every downtown station). This location could instantly become one of the most desirable outer-416 locations to live, just based on connectivity. Direct indoor connections to the subway, GO, and a plethora of BRT and regular bus routes, not to mention easy access to the 427, and by extension the QEW and the 401. It would also place a lot of redevelopment pressure on the rest of the warehouses/distributions centres in the immediate area, specifically those between the rail corridor, Dundas, and the 427.
 
gweed:

Except that it is not at all clear whether the developer would want a bus terminal on their site - or on that matter, what kind of legal liabilities the TTC could potentially get themselves into if said developer is expecting some kind of a timeframe for the extension. Donating a subway site sounds awfully generous, but I am not sure it's sufficient or magnanimous when the primary beneficiary appears to be the owner of the property and it doesn't cover the capital costs of extending the line.

AoD
 
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AlvinofDiaspar said:
gweed:

Except that it is not at all clear whether the developer would want a bus terminal on their site - or on that matter, what kind of legal liabilities the TTC could potentially get themselves into if said developer is expecting some kind of a timeframe for the extension. Donating a subway site sounds awfully generous, but I am not sure it's sufficient or magnanimous when the primary beneficiary appears to be the owner of the property and it doesn't cover the capital costs of extending the line.

AoD
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As for the timeframe, perhaps a solution would be to build a roughed in station in the basement, so that a station could be added later? That way the developer could build the condos, but the space for the station would be preserved. As for the bus terminal, wopchop mentioned that the site had been offered up to the TTC 5 years ago. I think it would be reasonable to assume that any type of subway station would also feature a bus terminal. It's pretty much a prerequisite for suburban subway stations.

To cover the added costs of roughing in the station, could the City not give the developers extra height and/or density to offset the added costs?
 
gweed123 said:
As for the timeframe, perhaps a solution would be to build a roughed in station in the basement, so that a station could be added later? That way the developer could build the condos, but the space for the station would be preserved. As for the bus terminal, wopchop mentioned that the site had been offered up to the TTC 5 years ago. I think it would be reasonable to assume that any type of subway station would also feature a bus terminal. It's pretty much a prerequisite for suburban subway stations.

To cover the added costs of roughing in the station, could the City not give the developers extra height and/or density to offset the added costs?
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The subway terminal being a sell is a total given, but I can see resistance to locating a high traffic bus terminal there. It really should be located closer to 427 in perhaps the buffer zone, but that would necessitate further long range planning that goes beyond this site. A roughed in station isn't a bad idea, but some kind of additional contribution should be expected (which would probably help but not cover the cost in any case).

AoD
 
gweed123 said:
As for the timeframe, perhaps a solution would be to build a roughed in station in the basement, so that a station could be added later? That way the developer could build the condos, but the space for the station would be preserved. As for the bus terminal, wopchop mentioned that the site had been offered up to the TTC 5 years ago. I think it would be reasonable to assume that any type of subway station would also feature a bus terminal. It's pretty much a prerequisite for suburban subway stations.
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The one thing that I'm not sure about is how much land they were willing to donate. I know they offered the TTC the land if they wanted to do the extension, but is that just enough land for a station? Or enough land for the station AND the terminal? I know at the time that the bus terminal was already being talked about for that location, so I was kind of assuming that it was for both, and that the developer would know that. But I'm not 100% on that. drum should know.
 
gweed123 said:
As for the timeframe, perhaps a solution would be to build a roughed in station in the basement, so that a station could be added later? That way the developer could build the condos, but the space for the station would be preserved. As for the bus terminal, wopchop mentioned that the site had been offered up to the TTC 5 years ago. I think it would be reasonable to assume that any type of subway station would also feature a bus terminal. It's pretty much a prerequisite for suburban subway stations.

To cover the added costs of roughing in the station, could the City not give the developers extra height and/or density to offset the added costs?
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I am not sure if there is a height restriction for this area due the flight path of the east runway for landing at the airport. I know the flight path is mostly on the west side of 427, but the odd one starts on the east side, south of Dundas

I think the tallest building for the area is 35s, going from memory of what I have seen over the years for plans.

Like everything these days around the city, what is "tall" that will be allow in this area in the first place?

As noted, this area is an idea area for a true Regional Hub that will service both the transit users as well the car users with higher density.

The south side will be develop first and be follow by the north. A lot of the empty industrial sites can be redevelop for modern day industry to bring back jobs that have been lost over the decades to the area. This keeps with live, work and play in one area.

Yes you could build a rough in subway station, but you need the bus terminal as well a new GO station if you are going to have development over them which is a must.

Kipling can't offer what Cloverdale can and time both TTC and Metrolinx to really look at this extension sooner than later. This maybe under the 2016 Big Move Review underway at this time.

The current Kipling station can't be made accessibly without great cost, with Metrolinx in control of it now. The Regional Terminal plan for there will offer that, but that a long walk/ride from the west end of GO platform through the new terminal to get to/from TTC bus terminal, let alone to the subway platform.

Again its bad planning and waste of money building this terminal at Kipling considering nether TTC, GO and Mississauga have room to expand both terminals to meet the increase of buses down the road. TTC can't do that today.
 
Thanks everyone for the replies. This is a pretty interesting discussion, and a project that I hope Metrolinx would qualify as a "quick win". The most complex component of the project is the subway extension, which is ultimately what might gum up the works. We all know how consistent Toronto is with rapid transit extension priorities...

The flight path issue is an interesting one, and one that I hadn't thought of to be honest. Are there not some pretty decently tall office buildings right on the other side of the 427 though? And there's a bunch of new condos going up just north of there.

As for the amount of land required, my vision for the site is the subway terminus on the lower level, with the bus terminal directly overtop at ground level, and the GO station to the south of both of those. If my recollection of the site is correct, the land slopes down from Dundas St towards the rail corridor, so the cross section of the site as viewed from the west or east may look a bit like an equilateral triangle, with the GO station half a floor up from the subway and half a floor down from the bus terminal.

This type of setup would allow for office or condo development to be built above it. The setup would be not all that dissimilar to York Mills or St. Clair West stations, only with a GO station attached.

As for local resistance to the bus terminal due to traffic, I would counter that there isn't very much residential in the immediate vicinity to raise a stink. The closest residential is further east along Dundas, and they would actually benefit from it, because there would be a reduction of MiWay buses zooming by (and by reduction I mean from current levels to basically zero). I'd count that as a plus, personally.
 
Only issue is the demand for housing in this area is not very high (it's not a very 'hip' area). It has some of the cheapest condos in metro Toronto ($300-400 per sqft), so the developers won't be able to make obscene profits.
 
arcum said:
Only issue is the demand for housing in this area is not very high (it's not a very 'hip' area). It has some of the cheapest condos in metro Toronto ($300-400 per sqft), so the developers won't be able to make obscene profits.
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It may not be hip, but it's totally Kip.

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Photo by Marcanadian
 

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Hi all,

I live in the area, and have been to multiple community meetings about this and the 6points reconfiguration, so hopefully I can shed some light on things. I raised similar questions as to why not just extend the subway to East Mall or Sherway. It would be mostly above ground and the land is mostly vacant or under utilized at the moment. Common sense and long term thinking would suggest a subway extension should work, but alas today's world is all about money instead. Basically here is the skinny:

The City of Toronto and/or TTC are kicking out Mississauga Transit from Islington station - the station needs major repairs and the land is being prepared for re-development in the next couple years.

Since the subway extension is not on any level of government's radar in terms of funding/priority, it's not going to happen anytime soon.

Reconfiguring Kipling to add a Mississauga bus terminal is the quickest, cheapest and really the only option they can take.

Derek.
 
arcum said:
Only issue is the demand for housing in this area is not very high (it's not a very 'hip' area). It has some of the cheapest condos in metro Toronto ($300-400 per sqft), so the developers won't be able to make obscene profits.
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The 6points reconfiguration is going to open up a lot more land for development. The plan also calls for creating retail-lined streetscapes on Dundas and Bloor. This area can become a prime area for housing someday with the transit hub nearby.
 
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