Markham GTA Centre | ?m | ?s | GTA S. and E. | BBB

There's a couple of other cities the NHL is more likely to want to re-locate a failing team (be it the Coyotes, Blues, Islanders, Stars, Lightning etc). I'm surprised that supposedly strong markets like Dallas/Texas and New Jersey are having troubles, but issues surrounding the Blues and Islanders have been around for years.

For some reason, Buttman remains fixated on Las Vegas and Kansas City. Kansas City has an arena at the ready. Seattle is also very much in the running (and a more logical location), as they build a new arena to host a planned NBA team. Quebec City, of course, is looking to build its own new complex for the LNH.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potential_National_Hockey_League_expansion
 
ShonTron said:
There's a couple of other cities the NHL is more likely to want to re-locate a failing team (be it the Coyotes, Blues, Islanders, Stars, Lightning etc). I'm surprised that supposedly strong markets like Dallas/Texas and New Jersey are having troubles, but issues surrounding the Blues and Islanders have been around for years.

For some reason, Buttman remains fixated on Las Vegas and Kansas City. Kansas City has an arena at the ready. Seattle is also very much in the running (and a more logical location), as they build a new arena to host a planned NBA team. Quebec City, of course, is looking to build its own new complex for the LNH.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potential_National_Hockey_League_expansion
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The Islanders situation is primarily around the arena. It's too small, too old, and in a really crappy location. Fix that, and I think you'll see a lot of their problems go away. Now having said that, the team is still recovering from the absolutely brutal GM job that Millbury did (although as a Sens fan, I can't be too hard on him, seeing as how he offered Ottawa the most 1-sided deal in Sens history: Yashin for the 2nd overall pick that became Spezza, and Zdeno Chara as a throw-in). New Jersey is in the same boat, their new arena isn't in a good place, which is odd because it's right in downtown Newark. But ever since their move from the Meadowlands, attendance has dropped big time.

I'm not sure what the problem in Dallas is, whether it's the market itself or the arena location or what. I know they moved arenas a few years ago, and have been having troubles since then, so it may be that.

Problems in Phoenix and Florida are a combination of arena location and a poor market. Both rinks are out on the edge of town (much like Scotiabank Place in Ottawa), but the hockey market isn't there to make up for that.
 
I don't doubt that Markham will sell out its seats. What I do question is will it be able to sell out its boxes to businesses? As much as advocate the arena be at vcc for transit reasons the more I think about it yonge and eglinton or yonge and sheppard seems to make much more sense for business reasons. Business people who want to bring their clients to a game to do business don't want to have to travel so far because it's out of the way and it will be difficult to get there after work. Obviously Markham business is growing but still it pales in comparison.
 
Actually how about the yonge and bloor bay Site. That is accessible by walking by transit by businesses. It would make sure that the teams brand doesn't become like the clippers or the mets but instead maintain at least the maple leafs quality if no time one day becoming a premium product if they actually win. It makes it easier to name the team Toronto. It would be easier to sell boxes. It could be combined with a luxury condo or two. And it would be a part of an already buzzing neighbourhood. Obviously I'm way off topic from a gta but thats because I'm not necessarily sold on the Site.
 
sixrings said:
I don't doubt that Markham will sell out its seats. What I do question is will it be able to sell out its boxes to businesses? As much as advocate the arena be at vcc for transit reasons the more I think about it yonge and eglinton or yonge and sheppard seems to make much more sense for business reasons. Business people who want to bring their clients to a game to do business don't want to have to travel so far because it's out of the way and it will be difficult to get there after work. Obviously Markham business is growing but still it pales in comparison.
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Do the Sens sell out their corporate boxes, etc? Given that the 404 corridor has more tech companies than Kanata now, I don't see this being a problem. As noted somewhere above, it's the fourth largest concentration of office space in the entire country. I would think it would also be easier than the ACC for companies along the 407 in the west end, etc.
 
canarob said:
Do the Sens sell out their corporate boxes, etc? Given that the 404 corridor has more tech companies than Kanata now, I don't see this being a problem. As noted somewhere above, it's the fourth largest concentration of office space in the entire country. I would think it would also be easier than the ACC for companies along the 407 in the west end, etc.
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The Sens sell out most of their boxes for most games. Some corporations get them for only part of the games though. For "Bronze Level" (Florida, Phoenix, etc) games there's usually about 10-15 empty boxes. For Silver or Gold level games they're usually full though.
 
canarob said:
Do the Sens sell out their corporate boxes, etc? Given that the 404 corridor has more tech companies than Kanata now, I don't see this being a problem. As noted somewhere above, it's the fourth largest concentration of office space in the entire country. I would think it would also be easier than the ACC for companies along the 407 in the west end, etc.
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Good point, and I too have no doubt that the corporate boxes would sell. The 404 corridor is a corporate powerhouse, much more so than Winnipeg or Edmonton. And there's no reason that companies getting boxes would be limited to that area, they'd be from all over the GTA. If a city like Ottawa can sell its corporate boxes for one team then surely Toronto can sell boxes for two.
 
MadMax said:
Trust me.... Every game would be a sellout, boxes included!
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They would sell out, but I would think that they would need to have a more Sens-like ticket pricing approach as opposed to a Leafs-like pricing approach.

The average upper bowl ticket will need to be around the $30-40 range. The market that they're going to have to hit is the middle class suburban family who can't afford to spend $250 for a family of 4 for the night to go to a Leafs game.

Another factor is transportation to and from the game. This arena may end up pushing the 407 BRT further up the priority list, as well as electrification of the Stouffville line. Scotiabank Place is surrounded by some pretty big parking lots, which it can get away with because it was built in the middle of what was a corn field. If this arena is being built in a new "downtown", having massive parking lots isn't an option, and parking structures will be a pain to get out of after games.

They're going to need a valid transit option to take at least 40% of the attendees by transit, otherwise the area is going to suffocate in traffic after every game. And as someone who attends Sens games regularly, I can tell you I've seen some pretty wicked traffic jams after games, especially after Leafs and Habs games (newbies who don't know how to exit the parking lots properly, always takes around 20 mins longer than usual).

The Sens are building a direct bus exit to the 417 from the bus loop which should help immensely, but that won't be ready until the middle of next season at the earliest. If the 407 BRT isn't ready for opening day, they may want to consider building a buses-only access route to the 407 as a temporary measure, so they can get buses in and out of there quickly.
 
Maybe the younger generation will take public transit but for the most part it's going to be a suburban type demographic who are used to their autos. They're going to have to find a way to incorporate parking lots into the dt area.
 
MadMax said:
Maybe the younger generation will take public transit but for the most part it's going to be a suburban type demographic who are used to their autos. They're going to have to find a way to incorporate parking lots into the dt area.
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Yes, but it's still going to be a traffic nightmare to get out of there. They're going to have to find some sort of way to give bus service a leg up on cars, even if it's just a temporary bus road to the 407.

Maybe because it'll be a "downtown" they can have a little bit more of a bar scene, to get people coming earlier and staying later, in order to smooth out the traffic a little bit.

But all I can say is if I was buying one of those condos near by, getting to and from your condo right before or after the game would be next to impossible.
 
For people like me who live near VIVA, it will be the preferred option. A $7 round trip will be a lot cheaper than trying to park, plus I hate dealing with traffic.
If VIVA Pink and Green were run late on event nights, that would also help people coming from the TTC.

I like the idea of a dedicated bus lane to get to the arena from the 407. The 407 GO buses go all the way from Oshawa through to York U and then on to Oakville, Hamilton, and Guelph (through different runs). Service would need to be more frequent, of course, but I could really see this being a good option for people, especially with the double-decker buses that hold 78 people. There would be opportunities to run express buses from some of the other regional centres. The dedicated 407 express lanes will be the icing on the cake though.

I've only been to one Sens games a while ago, so I don't really remember the road set up, but this arena will be near both the Kennedy and Warden 407 exits and Birchmount will take some pressure off for those heading south via surface routes.

People might drive at first, but the ensuing traffic apocalypse will hopefully make them consider one of the above options.
 
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canarob said:
For people like me who live near VIVA, it will be the preferred option. A $7 round trip will be a lot cheaper than trying to park, plus I hate dealing with traffic.
If VIVA Pink and Green were run late on event nights, that would also help people coming from the TTC.

I like the idea of a dedicated bus lane to get to the arena from the 407. The 407 GO buses go all the way from Oshawa through to York U and then on to Oakville, Hamilton, and Guelph (through different runs). Service would need to be more frequent, of course, but I could really see this being a good option for people, especially with the double-decker buses that hold 78 people. There would be opportunities to run express buses from some of the other regional centres. The dedicated 407 express lanes will be the icing on the cake though.

I've only been to one Sens games a while ago, so I don't really remember the road set up, but this area will be near both the Kennedy and Warden 407 exits and Birchmount will take some pressure off for those heading south via surface routes.

People might drive at first, but the ensuing traffic apocalypse will hopefully make them consider one of the above options.
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Arenas don't rely on "frequent" service. They rely on, and need, the ability to get large amounts of people to and from at one point in time. If I am going to a game and considering public transit I don't really care if there is a bus every 10 minutes all day....what I want is to be sure there is a seat on bus when I leave and a seat on a bus that gets me there on time for the event I want to go to.

So, which transit agency are we going to expect/demand to have many buses parked outside the arena waiting to whisk people away after the games in multiple directions?

Look at it another way.....if a double decker GO bus handles 78 people....you need 26 of those waiting to take away 10% of the arena capacity. Even if you find transit agencies willing to do that....you still have 90% of the people driving.

I suspect this will be a far more auto-centric arena than people want to admit.

As for the ticket prices. I think the person who noted that price point is important is right. For some reason, there is a belief around this city that a 2nd NHL team will drive down ticket prices. I don't understand that logic. To locate a team in the GTA it is going to be a very expensive propostion...more than any other available market. I would imagine the people who write those cheques (share of arena cost, expansion fee or expansion purchase fee and relocation fee) are doing so to make money. That combination of costs does not scream out "and then have low ticket prices" to me. Lower bowl seats will still be $150 - $200 and upper bowl seats will be advertised as $25 - $80 but the vast majority of them will be in the $50 - $80 range.....otherwise the thing just loses money.
 
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canarob said:
For people like me who live near VIVA, it will be the preferred option. A $7 round trip will be a lot cheaper than trying to park, plus I hate dealing with traffic.
If VIVA Pink and Green were run late on event nights, that would also help people coming from the TTC.

I like the idea of a dedicated bus lane to get to the arena from the 407. The 407 GO buses go all the way from Oshawa through to York U and then on to Oakville, Hamilton, and Guelph (through different runs). Service would need to be more frequent, of course, but I could really see this being a good option for people, especially with the double-decker buses that hold 78 people. There would be opportunities to run express buses from some of the other regional centres. The dedicated 407 express lanes will be the icing on the cake though.

I've only been to one Sens games a while ago, so I don't really remember the road set up, but this arena will be near both the Kennedy and Warden 407 exits and Birchmount will take some pressure off for those heading south via surface routes.

People might drive at first, but the ensuing traffic apocalypse will hopefully make them consider one of the above options.
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OC Transpo runs "Connextion 400" routes to SBP on event nights. They vary the number of buses based on the type of event and the expected attendance. There's 6 routes that they run, each one of them coming from 1 specific part of the city (one from Orleans, one from Riverside South, one from Barrhaven, one from Downtown, and one from some areas in the west end). Each one of these routes runs 3 to 5 buses spaced about 10 minutes apart. (http://www.octranspo1.com/discover-ottawa/scotiabank_place)

There's no reason why GO and/or VIVA can't run a similar type of service. VIVA can run 3 services: Express to RHC, express to Vaughan Centre, and express to Finch Station). GO can run express services to areas like Yorkdale, Union (would be replaced by GO REX when operational), the Lakeshore East GO stations, Square One, etc).

I would expect GO to do significant upgrades to Unionville Station in order to add a GO bus terminal there as well as the train station itself, and for there to be some type of walkway (preferably covered) between the arena and the station.
 
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This document (link) states that minimum 4400 parking spots will be needed. Not sure if that's the arena itself (and arena owned lots) or total spots, contrast with 20 000 parking spots within blocks of the ACC.

To reiterate what others have said. On opening day there would need to be bidirectional GO service on the Stoufille line, the 407 GO BRT (or for that matter the Northern crosstown GO line as Gweed, and myself have mentioned elsewhere), expanded VIVA service, and local YRT/TTC service. Side note, when I was in Cincinnati last summer they actually ran event specific bus runs on both their local and tourist oriented (TANKbus??) services. There were actually 3 - 4 buses waiting at the stop filling up with riders and than heading off. So it's not unusual to see this type of set up.

Also while you may get the majority of fans leaving right after the event you won't move them all at that point. For example there will be a trickle from about 30 mins prior to the end of the event to a rush right after and back to a trickle about an hour after. So if the event ends at 10, you might say start service shortly after 9 pm ramping up to the most service just before 10 lasting until 10:30 and paring back down until 11. Within that 2 hr window I am sure we can move about 24 buses during that time span (10 min average service frequency across 4 routes, GO 407, 2 VIVA routes, and special event route) plus whatever a GO train can move.
 
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