Markham GTA Centre | ?m | ?s | GTA S. and E. | BBB

[Markham VIP]

On the contrary, I believe this is being built for a 2nd NHL team. This guy is not plunking down that much cabbage for the sake of downtown Markham.... obviously there is a lot more behind the scenes than they can let be known. Like TrueNorth keeping their mouths shut to get their team. This is how the game is played in the NHL, you have to tow the line. To think this is just for the benefit of Markham is absurd.

I don't think that GTA Sports and Entertainment is doing this for Markham....I fully acknowledge the fact that Graeme Roustan may intend to purchase an NHL team in the future if the opportunity presents itself.

What I think is that MARKHAM is doing this for the benefit of Markham. The people of Markham, who are represented by the Mayor and Council, are not the ones who intend to pursue the NHL team. Instead, their goal is to accelerate the development of Markham Centre and to build something that the people of Markham can be proud of. If Graeme Roustan wants to bring an NHL team then that's his business and it'll be his money that does it.

This is how the new arena benefits all major stakeholders:
- Town of Markham - gets a cultural centre/arena that they can be proud of
- GTA Sports Entertainment - Increased probablilty that they will purchase an NHL team in the future
- Remington Group - Gets opportunity to accelerate the development of Downtown Markham

 

[taal]

Yea Markham could care less, but I'm sure it'll make the venue that much more busy driving the local businesses so it wouldn't hurt.

I don't think a NHL team is coming in the near future ... I could be wrong though ... I don't think the NHL is that interested, and to be honest on a personal level I'd much rather see Hamilton or Quebec city get one first. Sorry Markham VIP it's nothing personal , it would be so nice to see Toronto vs Quebec again !


Here's one thing ... I don't really by the community benefits the mayor keeps touting. They want to host 'local events there', okay maybe some trade shows but generally stadiums are bad configurations for such. Local events and town halls ? That's ridiculous and silly, there are way more then enough seats in town hall already for most events. They're going to need to rent the space to host it here otherwise. Other public events are usually outdoors as they should be so again this won't help ...

I think they're over-bowling the local involving to try to sell it. Anyway who cares, why the need to hold local events with like 100 people ? The concerts should be able to help the area.

Your right for remington they'll be happy with this too.

 

[Markham VIP]

I agree...I don't think an NHL team is coming there any time soon. However, who knows what's in the cards for some NHL teams 5-10 years from now. Let's say that within 10 years, there are 4 NHL teams in the US that want to relocate. Do you think Downtown Markham and Graeme Roustan have at least a 25% chance?

I also agree with you in regards to the Mayor.
I also believe that the whole "local" spin on the arena is just a way to increase it's favour amongst the Markham population, to help promote it that way to council, and to justify the risk.

I hope they choose the name "GTA CENTRE". It has mass appeal to the entire GTA and will make people in other municipalities feel as if it's their arena too.
The current tentative name scares me...."Markham Sports, Entertainment, & Cultural Centre"....lol.

 

[taal]

I agree...I don't think an NHL team is coming there any time soon. However, who knows what's in the cards for some NHL teams 5-10 years from now. Let's say that within 10 years, there are 4 NHL teams in the US that want to relocate. Do you think Downtown Markham and Graeme Roustan have at least a 25% chance?

I also agree with you in regards to the Mayor.
I also believe that the whole "local" spin on the arena is just a way to increase it's favour amongst the Markham population, to help promote it that way to council, and to justify the risk.

I hope they choose the name "GTA CENTRE". It has mass appeal to the entire GTA and will make people in other municipalities feel as if it's their arena too.
The current tentative name scares me...."Markham Sports, Entertainment, & Cultural Centre"....lol.

Markham Vip, I like the way you think ! At least your honest with your self and other behind your intentions / motivation and can see through the typical political spin.

In terms of a hockey team I think it'll happen, its just a matter of time. While the NHL might not want another team in Toronto (they don't), it doesn't make financial sense not to have one, on paper at least. I say that as there is some truth to this overused statement: Toronto isn't a hockey town, its a maple leaf town (and I'm not sure this will continue in the long term).

Here's the other thing, now that Markham is getting arena, I think anyone else in the GTA will be hard pressed to build another, even if it is for a hockey team a.k.a downview park (there were some rumors about this a while ago). I think a team in Waterloo will have less chance now as well.

Regarding the arena name, I'm a little perplexed and confused by it, did you see my earlier post where I included the plans for the giant Olympic sports training facility ? The name of the arena seems to better describe that then the arena it self.

GTA center has a nice ring too it actually.

Keep something in mind here though, these arenas lose their names very quickly It'll get a corporate sponsorship soon enough ... let me think, what's the largest employer in Markham ? I have a good guess, its a giant American technology company, there lab and Canadian headquarters are both in Markham in two giant buildings, they have more building as well. They must employee over 8000 in Markham ... can you guess what I'm referring too ? I don't actually think they'd buy the naming rights but it'd have a nice ring as well and go with the large cap / tech vibe in Markham.

 

[Markham VIP]

I fully support the Mayor and his strategy he has chosen to accomplish the dream of Markham Centre. His actions in general increase the probability that he will succeed at his tasks. His secrecy is to leave competitors in the dark. He is a "get-the-job-done" sort of guy, and I'm glad he's on my side

I think that the NHL will want another team in the GTA for the very reason you stated, it makes financial sense. It's the Leafs that will not want the team here. The Leafs feel that they have a legal right to the GTA area, however, the NHL's position is that is incorrect. What will happen is that it'll end up in court. The outcome will most likely be royalties being paid to the Leafs, and the courts will decide how much.

I agree with you that an arena will decrease the chances that another one is built in the GTA....but you never know......

LOL....IBM Entertainment Centre.....actually has a nice ring to it.....

 

[taal]

I fully support the Mayor and his strategy he has chosen to accomplish the dream of Markham Centre. His actions in general increase the probability that he will succeed at his tasks. His secrecy is to leave competitors in the dark. He is a "get-the-job-done" sort of guy, and I'm glad he's on my side

I think that the NHL will want another team in the GTA for the very reason you stated, it makes financial sense. It's the Leafs that will not want the team here. The Leafs feel that they have a legal right to the GTA area, however, the NHL's position is that is incorrect. What will happen is that it'll end up in court. The outcome will most likely be royalties being paid to the Leafs, and the courts will decide how much.

I agree with you that an arena will decrease the chances that another one is built in the GTA....but you never know......

LOL....IBM Entertainment Centre.....actually has a nice ring to it.....

Ha, you got it !

As others have stated I think the leafs will be fully supportive of a team in Markham now that the ownership has changed.

The main driving force for income with the leafs isn't ticket sales, its the broadcasting rights. Rogers and Bell would probably love another team, think of all that new content they'll have access too.

 

[Markham VIP]

Ha, you got it !

As others have stated I think the leafs will be fully supportive of a team in Markham now that the ownership has changed.

The main driving force for income with the leafs isn't ticket sales, its the broadcasting rights. Rogers and Bell would probably love another team, think of all that new content they'll have access too.

Ya I never really thought of it that way.....I guess it is likely that Rogers and Bell would be in favour of a second team in Toronto.

Another good sponsor for the arena would be American Express who has their Canadian head office just down the street from Downtown Markham.
......AMEX Entertainment Centre.

 

[taal]

Ya I never really thought of it that way.....I guess it is likely that Rogers and Bell would be in favour of a second team in Toronto.

Another good sponsor for the arena would be American Express who has their Canadian head office just down the street from Downtown Markham.
......AMEX Entertainment Centre.

IBM is closer, but your right

 

[canarob]

The vote is tomorrow -- this should be interesting.

http://www.yorkregion.com/news/article/1342864--confidential-report-details-markham-s-nhl-dreams

Confidential report details Markham's NHL dreams

The proposed NHL-ready arena in Markham would be built on a developer’s required parkland contribution in a bid to get an NHL team, the Markham Economist & Sun and yorkregion.com have learned.
Outstanding issues and risks associated with the proposal were kept away from the public and discussed privately by Markham council after last Friday’s public meeting

 

[Markham VIP]

I would be extremely PISSED OFF if this gets deferred.
I hope the threats being made by some of the councillors is just political positioning.
They signed confidentiality agreements so that means they have discussed this before. Did the question of financing not come up then? Why is this such a surprise to them?
I think it's just political positioning stragegies on their part and the vote will fully pass.......(i hope)

 

[canarob]

Well, this is certainly over selling it!

Markham’s NHL bait: Will arena make bedroom community a city to rival Toronto?

http://www.thestar.com/news/article...edroom-community-a-city-to-rival-toronto?bn=1

 

[taal]

Well the silly part about that statement is they were calling Toronto "expensive" ... if their dream comes true Markham will be very expensive as well ... very chicken and the egg so I always find statements like that silly.

Oh Toronto cost so much, will build something just as grand here ... well if you, watch out prices will go up.


Anyway I think the article meant in the NHL team sense point of view. There's a lot of inside information that it seems they question the ability for this to turn a profit without an NHL team.

What I find very strange is just this:
Apparently there were some offers to buy Markham's share, but they don't want to go ahead with this. It seems like the safer long term move, as you wash your hands clean, less the property tax breaks that were only mentioned briefly.

 

[TOareaFan]

As the article states, arenas/sports teams often just shift spending from one local retailer/service provider to the arena so the net economic benefit is often zero. I think, however, this is less true in the Markham situation as this ("this" being an arena and NHL team) would likely, also, shift spending from other municipalities to Markham. I can tell you that I have never once, spent any of my entertainment budget in Markham....if there was an NHL team I might. Another way to look at it is to consider that most municipalities that get these things generally are much larger than Markham and, therefore, it is much easier to say that all/most of the money spent at the new arena would have been spent in the municipality anyway.....if Markham was not attached to Toronto would anyone consider it a candidate for a 20k seat arena and an NHL team? Of course not...so Markham is, I think, more likely to gain net economic spending/growth from this arena than most municipalities would.

That said, if this was in my municipality would I support my local council borrowing $162 million for this......no I would not. This is a risky venture.....no arena/stadium of this magnitude that I know of has ever come close to generating a return without an anchor sports tenant and, even then, you have to do a lot more than just have the anchor to make money.

Some outside observations.

So the land that Remington were "donating" for this project was required parkland anyway......so they are, really, giving nothing. The town is just taking "parkland" and turning it into an arena.

How can these "voluntary" development charges not be seen as taking money from one developer for the benefit of another? Does that BILD letter mean that no one will pay them? Some will some won't? Are they optional/voluntary or not so much? Is there a court challenge looming?

Unless there is already an agreement for an NHL team that we do not know about....how is this much different than just a modern day version of what Hamilton did with Copps Col.? "Build ti they will come" may work in Hollywood but does not always work in real life. Copps never attracted the NHL....the Sprint Centre in KC has never attracted a major league tenant and even with an NHL team the people of Glendale wish they never contributed to that arena either.

This may work....it may not work....but $162million is a lot of money in a town the size of Markham and it is far from a risk-free proposal. At the very least (if it was in a municipality I had a vote in) I would want this to go to a city-wide vote with all of the facts laid out.

 

[canarob]

Well the silly part about that statement is they were calling Toronto "expensive" ... if their dream comes true Markham will be very expensive as well ... very chicken and the egg so I always find statements like that silly.

Yeah, and it's a bit funny in the sense that most Markhamites own their homes, so everyone is ok with extra development charges driving up the price of housing. As a homeowner, this benefits me (although it might mean I'll never be able to afford a bigger home!).

Apparently there were some offers to buy Markham's share, but they don't want to go ahead with this. It seems like the safer long term move, as you wash your hands clean, less the property tax breaks that were only mentioned briefly.

Yeah, I also found that odd. I wonder who the buyers were? Pension funds?

As the article states, arenas/sports teams often just shift spending from one local retailer/service provider to the arena so the net economic benefit is often zero. I think, however, this is less true in the Markham situation as this ("this" being an arena and NHL team) would likely, also, shift spending from other municipalities to Markham.

This is my take as well. If we don't build it, Mississauga or another municipality will. It also gives Markham Centre more of a reason to exist.

That said, if this was in my municipality would I support my local council borrowing $162 million for this......no I would not. This is a risky venture.....no arena/stadium of this magnitude that I know of has ever come close to generating a return without an anchor sports tenant and, even then, you have to do a lot more than just have the anchor to make money.

With Live Nation involved and the ACC being at capacity, really the only competition for multiple-night concerts would be Copps way out in Hamilton, so I think the potential demand for concert use would be quite high. Hopefully it could at least break even without a team.

So the land that Remington were "donating" for this project was required parkland anyway......so they are, really, giving nothing. The town is just taking "parkland" and turning it into an arena.

I thought it was land that was newly turned into "parkland?" I hope this doesn't mean an actual reduction in the amount of parkland.

How can these "voluntary" development charges not be seen as taking money from one developer for the benefit of another? Does that BILD letter mean that no one will pay them? Some will some won't? Are they optional/voluntary or not so much? Is there a court challenge looming?

The charges will be passed on to new buyers. When you consider what homes are selling for, they aren't that dramatic. The median detached home is $705, so $5 on top of that won't kill anyone. The charges are higher for condos and townhomes near the arena, but they'll benefit more from it anyway. People always have the option of buying in a cheaper suburb at any rate.

Unless there is already an agreement for an NHL team that we do not know about....how is this much different than just a modern day version of what Hamilton did with Copps Col.? "Build ti they will come" may work in Hollywood but does not always work in real life. Copps never attracted the NHL....the Sprint Centre in KC has never attracted a major league tenant and even with an NHL team the people of Glendale wish they never contributed to that arena either.

I'm not as familiar with KC, but the northern GTA is a much more lucrative market than Hamilton.

 

[TOareaFan]

With Live Nation involved and the ACC being at capacity, really the only competition for multiple-night concerts would be Copps way out in Hamilton, so I think the potential demand for concert use would be quite high. Hopefully it could at least break even without a team.

The problem with relying on concerts is that the arena/landlord makes very little of the money. The typical concert model is that the promoter guarantees the act a certain amount of money for the show...so the act has little risk....the promoter negotiates a "rental fee" for the facility so the facility has little risk but not much earnings....the promoter is the one that sets the ticket prices (based on the economics of the show, in part related to the above two things) and the promoter makes the profit on the night.

EDIT: BTW....the ACC is not at "capacity"....I think they book something in the order of 225 - 250 nights.....so there is space there...not a great deal of flexibility (particularly October - April)....but space yes.

You may, indeed, be able to put 200 shows a night into the arena (doubt it would be that high but maybe) but I doubt it would be enough to justify a >$300 million expenditure! If it were so (ie. if the economics of an arena were independant of a sports tenant) don't you think one would have been built in the GTA by now?

The charges will be passed on to new buyers. When you consider what homes are selling for, they aren't that dramatic. The median detached home is $705, so $5 on top of that won't kill anyone. The charges are higher for condos and townhomes near the arena, but they'll benefit more from it anyway.

Sure, I understand that it would (in theory) be a pass through but the question was....if the other developers don't want to pay it...how can you force them? The town themselves are calling it a "voluntary" payment so if they don't pay, how do the taxpayers get their $162million back?

People always have the option of buying in a cheaper suburb at any rate.

And if enough buyers to balk at the higher price the developers have three options.....1. refuse to pay the "voluntary" charge to the Town....2. hold firm on the price and see their units not sell.....3. halt/postpone/stop the development.

In each of those options, though, the result is that the Town does not get the charge and, as a result, the taxpayer does not get their $162million back.

As I said, I don't live in Markham so these are just the observations of an outsider but that level of risk (based upon the information made public, anyway) is not one that this taxpayer would support in my community (and I happen to be a big sports fan and regular concert goer.....so you might expect I would be very supportive of this sort of development).