Toronto Crosstown LRT | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | Arcadis

[Anth]

Transit City has to be one of the most short-sighted and ideologically-motivated transit plans ever conceived, but I do agree that one has to be 'educated' to be convinced otherwise. A lot of common sense has to be pushed out of one's head to embrace it.

 

[Riverdale Rink Rat]

Transit City has to be one of the most short-sighted and ideologically-motivated transit plans ever conceived, but I do agree that one has to be 'educated' to be convinced otherwise. A lot of common sense has to be pushed out of one's head to embrace it.

OK, troll. Explain why an LRT on Eglinton was short-sighted and ideologically-motivated, but an underground, much more expensive LRT on Eglinton and a magical subway extension on Sheppard is a well-planned-out exercise in transit planning.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Well there is an element of ideology in the original TC scheme - i.e. justification through the pretext of linking poor neighbourhoods. That said, EC and other lines have merit, and taken as a whole it can't be more ideological and less about good planning than promising a subway line of low priority in order to get elected.

AoD

 

[js97]

OK, troll. Explain why an LRT on Eglinton was short-sighted and ideologically-motivated, but an underground, much more expensive LRT on Eglinton and a magical subway extension on Sheppard is a well-planned-out exercise in transit planning.

Have you evenr had to travel from scarborough to downtown?
Have you ever had to travel 'long distances' on a streetcar/lrt?
Have you ever taken the Bloor subway from Yonge to Kennedy/warden/or even victoria park? - now imagine taking a street car to go those distances?

This argument that there isn't enough 'ridership' is such falacy that's been created by special interest groups backed by ideologically politics.

Bloor and yonge did not have the 'ridership' when it was built in the 50's, imagine having a queen/king like street car along those lines? this city would be gridlocked and constrained like no other (and we are already the longest commute in the city)

If you look at the traffic patterns of drivers, majority come out from the suburbs, if you give them an alternative, FAST mode of transport to their car, they will take it. In order to sustain the growth this city is expecting in the next 10/15 years, this city will need subways.

Infrastructure is built for the future, if you wait until there is enough 'ridership', you'll get the same and expensive mess that is the queen/king street cars (A DRL should have been built 10 years ago)


Transit city is more of a social enginnering experiment to create local neighbourhoods and communities. That's great and i'm all for it, but if you look at the traffic patterns and the locations of jobs, most of it is centralized in the core. This means that the majority of commuters must travel to the core, during work hours (obvious in our traffic patters between 7-9 and 4-7) and Transit city is not nearly a sufficient solution for these commuters (case study queen/king street cars, most have abandoned them for bikes instead)

 

[mpd618]

Have you ever taken the Bloor subway from Yonge to Kennedy/warden/or even victoria park? - now imagine taking a street car to go those distances?

Oh hey, the streetcar = LRT trope. Nice.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

js97:

Sorry, the subway is the wrong mode to use if your intent is to go from one end of the city to another - it takes 40+ minutes to go from Kipling to Kennedy. The only reason one would do it is for the lack truly crosstown rail lines. The assertion that there is no ridership when the Bloor line when it was built is patently false as well - from Transit Toronto:

Politically, the City of Toronto wanted a subway on Queen Street. Queen was the main east-west street running through the downtown, and on that basis the east-west subway had to go there. However, the TTC’s figures showed that ridership on the Bloor streetcar line was increasing rapidly, to almost 9000 passengers per direction per hour. Automobile traffic on Bloor Street and Danforth Avenue was increasing as well, pushing the multiple-unit PCCs to their limits, just as Yonge’s Witt trailer trains had been when the decision had been made to build the first subway beneath them.

http://transit.toronto.on.ca/subway/5104.shtml

It was an upgrade from an existing streetcar line that is rapidly approaching capacity limits - not a brand new subway line along a corridor that couldn't even fill the capacity of a lesser mode.

AoD

 

[Eug]

scenicliving.ca is a project at Eglinton west of Leslie.

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=43.71...mxJjhA0U_MN9VAh9jRAD4w&cbp=12,157.08,,0,-3.82

They now have a picture of the LRT car on their billboard there. They even have a transit map on their website, although it's still the old Transit City map.

http://scenicliving.ca/pdf/ttc_lr_plan.pdf

 

[sixrings]

SURE transit CIty needed a DRL... ANYONE would admit that... BUt then there would be sticker shock at the final price tag... I think MIller was trying top use a over capacity yonge line to force the province and the feds to pay for a DRL... That actually isnt a bad strategy when typically they dont want to pay for anything.....

As someone who use to live in scarborough Ill admit TTC sucks for long distances.. But thats the price you pay for having a big house for decent price... I live in a semidetached 3 bedroom house VS a detached 4 bedroom house in scarborough. The prices are the same but I am 2 mins from a subway station and 10 mins from downtown. Your argument is typical suburban I want my cake and eat it to..

BTW I lived at midland and finch for my teenage years and when I went to school downtown. And I never had a CAR.

 

[sixrings]

scenicliving.ca is a project at Eglinton west of Leslie.

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=43.71...mxJjhA0U_MN9VAh9jRAD4w&cbp=12,157.08,,0,-3.82

They now have a picture of the LRT car on their billboard there. They even have a transit map on their website, although it's still the old Transit City map.

http://scenicliving.ca/pdf/ttc_lr_plan.pdf

They are probably using the old plan since it shows DON MILLS LRT which would be in close proximity to their site.. It would make a purchaser think that there would be plenty of options... Eginton would help no doubt but a second line would make the area much more desirable...

 

[Paleo]

Have you evenr had to travel from scarborough to downtown?
Have you ever had to travel 'long distances' on a streetcar/lrt?
Have you ever taken the Bloor subway from Yonge to Kennedy/warden/or even victoria park? - now imagine taking a street car to go those distances?

This argument that there isn't enough 'ridership' is such falacy that's been created by special interest groups backed by ideologically politics.

Bloor and yonge did not have the 'ridership' when it was built in the 50's, imagine having a queen/king like street car along those lines? this city would be gridlocked and constrained like no other (and we are already the longest commute in the city)

If you look at the traffic patterns of drivers, majority come out from the suburbs, if you give them an alternative, FAST mode of transport to their car, they will take it. In order to sustain the growth this city is expecting in the next 10/15 years, this city will need subways.

Infrastructure is built for the future, if you wait until there is enough 'ridership', you'll get the same and expensive mess that is the queen/king street cars (A DRL should have been built 10 years ago)


Transit city is more of a social enginnering experiment to create local neighbourhoods and communities. That's great and i'm all for it, but if you look at the traffic patterns and the locations of jobs, most of it is centralized in the core. This means that the majority of commuters must travel to the core, during work hours (obvious in our traffic patters between 7-9 and 4-7) and Transit city is not nearly a sufficient solution for these commuters (case study queen/king street cars, most have abandoned them for bikes instead)

It's called a GO train. You might want to look into it.

 

[Anth]

OK, troll. Explain why an LRT on Eglinton was short-sighted and ideologically-motivated, but an underground, much more expensive LRT on Eglinton and a magical subway extension on Sheppard is a well-planned-out exercise in transit planning.

You can't just cherry-pick Eglinton to justify the whole plan, nor should you assume that just because I oppose TC I automatically support the mayor's plan.

What about all the ridiculous transfers? The superfluous lines to Malvern? The fact that the Jane LRT would be virtually impossible to build? Or spitefully cementing Sheppard as a stubway?

Build the Eglinton LRT, fine, but don't blindly bring back the rest of Transit City as if it were the pinnacle of transit planning.

 

[Riverdale Rink Rat]

LOVED it! But this part most...

case study queen/king street cars, most have abandoned them for bikes instead

The rest of your arguments sucked donkeys, but THIS was awesome.... had to explain to the rest of the fishbowl why I was belly-laughing at my computer.

My commute is the 504, or the 72/504 or 503. Let me just say that if a few more of the human sardines each evening could be convinced to 'abandon the streetcar for bikes', my world would shine a little brighter.

Hey, once people are complaining about too many humans on the separated-line and underground LRT, I for one will be happy to take the next step and build a subway. But since subways cost a mint, and LRT costs a fraction of that, I'm going for LRT -- one of the many, many head-scratchers about our current mayor (i.e. He wants lower spending, except on big ticket items where lower spending could make a big, big difference to my budget.)

 

[Riverdale Rink Rat]

You can't just cherry-pick Eglinton to justify the whole plan, nor should you assume that just because I oppose TC I automatically support the mayor's plan.

What about all the ridiculous transfers? The superfluous lines to Malvern? The fact that the Jane LRT would be virtually impossible to build? Or spitefully cementing Sheppard as a stubway?

Build the Eglinton LRT, fine, but don't blindly bring back the rest of Transit City as if it were the pinnacle of transit planning.

I'm sorry, I'd assumed that since this was a thread to discuss the Eglinton-Crosstown LRT, that you were discussing the Eglinton-Crosstown LRT. Sheppard was 'spitefully cemented' because it was a stupid-ass thing to do in the first place. Blame Mayor Mel for that travesty. I have no brief whatsoever on Malvern or Jane -- no idea whether they were good ideas or bad.

My main point was that the killing of Transit City, and its replacement, was as ideological or more than the left-wing ideology behind Transit City. Given that the ideology behind TC was 'bring as much transit to as many underserved areas as possible for the least amount of money', I'm willing to let the lefties build a line to Jane/Finch and Malvern in the hopeless idealism of 'improving people's lives will cause less people mired in absolute poverty.' They may be wrongheaded about those lines, but the greater part of the TC plan was sound transit planning.

 

[Riverdale Rink Rat]

You can't just cherry-pick Eglinton to justify the whole plan, nor should you assume that just because I oppose TC I automatically support the mayor's plan.

What about all the ridiculous transfers? The superfluous lines to Malvern? The fact that the Jane LRT would be virtually impossible to build? Or spitefully cementing Sheppard as a stubway?

Build the Eglinton LRT, fine, but don't blindly bring back the rest of Transit City as if it were the pinnacle of transit planning.

Addendum: Seems to me that you're not actually against most or all of the TC plan, but rather you're bitching about some of the details. How much of TC would you kill -- just Malvern and Jane? Then, Finch/Sheppard/Eglinton and the inner N/S lines you would agree with? So... 80% OK?

 

[gweed123]

Addendum: Seems to me that you're not actually against most or all of the TC plan, but rather you're bitching about some of the details. How much of TC would you kill -- just Malvern and Jane? Then, Finch/Sheppard/Eglinton and the inner N/S lines you would agree with? So... 80% OK?

Build Eglinton-Scarborough, Finch West, and the Waterfront West LRT, and then divert the rest of the funds into GO Transit expansion. Guaranteed at least half of the other proposed LRT lines wouldn't meet the LRT threshold if GO was running 15 min frequencies with more stations inside of Toronto.

With an S-Bahn-like GO network in place, I think many people would be amazed at how drastically the travel patterns would shift, and where the "upgrade priorities" would then lie. High frequency, medium capacity curbside BRT routes would be all that would be needed on a lot of corridors, something that could be built for a fraction of what the LRTs would cost.