Personally, I'd rather that the downloaded part of the QEW have remained the QEW, or at least retained the brand--for historical reasons. I simply cannot condition myself t/w that stretch being the Gardiner, even if there's virtually no 1939 remaining there...
Actually I assumed anyone here would have been fully aware that the DVP and part of the Gardiner were Metro highways from day one (well, since before they were constructed). How overestimating the audience is deception, I don't know ... the clear fact is that these are city highways, nothing to do with the province, and not designed to provide transportation infrastructure that neither has origin or destination in Toronto.
I don't know ... the clear fact is that these are city highways, nothing to do with the province, and not designed to provide transportation infrastructure that neither has origin or destination in Toronto.
Call the Gardiner corridor whatever you want, but in the eyes of someone actually driving on it, it may as well begin in Newmarket and end in Buffalo. There is no question that the QEW/Gardiner/DVP/404 is a true regional highway.
As for the eastern leg of the Gardiner, it's seriously counter productive to simply demolish a piece of infrastructure because it isn't currently carrying at least 150% of its design capacity like the rest of the transportation infrastructure in this city. Do we close the Yonge subway north of Eglinton because the trains don't always operate at standing room only? Do we turn Adelaide and Richmond into 2 way streets because at 3 lanes, traffic seems to move well? I seriously hope not!
Also wanted to add a quick note about traffic theory. As actual road usage approaches the design capacity of a lane, the flow becomes unstable. A road may flow quite well carrying 2,000 cars an hour (the practical capacity limit of a lane), but become completely gridlocked at 2,050 cars per hour, to the point that only a fraction of that gets by. Removing the eastern leg of the Gardiner could cause serious traffic delays even though it is seemingly empty most of the time today.
Look at what the lane closures on Avenue Road have done - factor in Mt. Pleasant, Yonge, and Bathurst, and there was only a 20% reduction in lane capacity on northbound arterial roads servicing the downtown area. It's even less when you factor in local roads. Yet, it's now virtually impossible to leave the city between 3 and 7 pm without hitting a wall of traffic no matter which road you take. Closing the eastern Gardiner may well have the same effect on surrounding roads.
I can see that side of the argument as well - but currently the eastern part of the Gardiner serves as highway access to and from the neighbourhoods around Queen East, and the Port Lands which has a lot of industrial traffic. If that part of the Gardiner were torn down, there would presumably be more congestion (including truck traffic) and pollution along Front, Adelaide and Richmond East, and Eastern Avenue, which would make those streets and surrounding neighbourhoods even less pedestrian-friendly.
Call the Gardiner corridor whatever you want, but in the eyes of someone actually driving on it, it may as well begin in Newmarket and end in Buffalo. There is no question that the QEW/Gardiner/DVP/404 is a true regional highway.
Sure, I agree. My point is simply that as the Province of Ontario, United States of America, Region Of York, etc., have shown no interest in funding the DVP and Gardiner, that it isn't the job of the City of Toronto to provide lane capacity for such uses.
I can see that side of the argument as well - but currently the eastern part of the Gardiner serves as highway access to and from the neighbourhoods around Queen East, and the Port Lands which has a lot of industrial traffic. If that part of the Gardiner were torn down, there would presumably be more congestion (including truck traffic) and pollution along Front, Adelaide and Richmond East, and Eastern Avenue, which would make those streets and surrounding neighbourhoods even less pedestrian-friendly.
How exactly? Traffic either gets on the northbound DVP at Don Road (wouldn't change) or the Westbound Gardiner at Jarvis (wouldn't change) or the beginning of the Gardiner at Booth Ave.
You'd lose the last option, which is why the Lake Shore configuration is important, but it's not an insurmountable challenge. And the solution assuredly isn't "Let's just leave everything exactly as it is!"
For the record, I think a solid option might be some sort of smaller-in-scale elevated overpass, maybe over the railway tracks. I'm not opposed to it.
I can see that side of the argument as well - but currently the eastern part of the Gardiner serves as highway access to and from the neighbourhoods around Queen East, and the Port Lands which has a lot of industrial traffic.
As someone who lives in the neighbourhoods around Queen East, I'm not too troubled if the Gardiner only starts at Jarvis. On a bad day when Lakeshore is messed up around Carlaw (accident or something), it's not difficult to simply take Eastern or Dundas down to Cherry or Jarvis and get on Lakeshore/Gardiner there; traffic problems in the area aren't horrific - unlike some parts of town. So we drive a few extra blocks to get on the Gardiner. Traffic doesn't seem any worse since they took down the section of Gardiner they already removed ... actually seems better, as it doesn't bottleneck as badly.
Well, please, what DO we have to plan to do then? The jobs are here. The people aren't. If you're happy to see the jobs and the tax base and shoppers they represeent disappear to where they are, I'm sure so would they. And before you just brush off the idea and suggest businesses wouldn't do that, tell it to Montreal in the wake of Bill 101. The 404 is a lot shorter migration than the 401.
the clear fact is that these are city highways, nothing to do with the province, and not designed to provide transportation infrastructure that neither has origin or destination in Toronto.
The clear fact is that one connects to the Queen Elizabeth Way and Highway 427 and the other to Highway 404 and Highway 401. To suggest these expressways have nothing to do with the province is simply to deny the evidence of your own eyes and logic from the high horse you won't climb down from.
Sure, I agree. My point is simply that as the Province of Ontario, United States of America, Region Of York, etc., have shown no interest in funding the DVP and Gardiner, that it isn't the job of the City of Toronto to provide lane capacity for such uses.
Wait, hold on... do you honestly believe that the Don Valley Parkway and the Gardiner Expressway were literally built and funded by Metropolitan Toronto ALONE? That the Province of Ontario didn't kick in huge funds to accomplish their construction in a timely fashion?
How exactly? Traffic either gets on the northbound DVP at Don Road (wouldn't change) or the Westbound Gardiner at Jarvis (wouldn't change) or the beginning of the Gardiner at Booth Ave.
I checked the stats for this. Roughly 40,000 vehicles a day use this stretch in each direction, going east-north out of the downtown, or coming west-north into it from outside. To suggest it's no big deal to get rid of it is like saying you don't need an elbow; your upper arm and forearm do just great on their own.
Traffic doesn't seem any worse since they took down the section of Gardiner they already removed ... actually seems better, as it doesn't bottleneck as badly.
No kidding. That stretch didn't go where it was meant to. It was intended, by sometime in the latter 1960s, to carry traffic to the 401 in Scarborough, and serve as a high-speed distributor system on the way. Instead, it took the non-DVP-bound residual traffic of three expressway lanes, made them effectively nothing more than duplicates of the three lanes of Lakeshore eastbound, and then dumped that traffic onto those lanes (instantly reduced to two at Leslie, instead of three where it exits now) with nowhere else to go. Same thing happened when they turned the Spadina into the Allen, first at Lawrence and then at Eglinton. This is exactly what happens whenever you end an expressway instead of linking it to another one built to the same flow standards.
The context of my comments were for trips with both the origin and destination outside of Toronto. We don't have to attract cars that are travelling from Pickering to Hamilton onto the Gardiner.
If you're happy to see the jobs and the tax base and shoppers they represeent disappear to where they are, I'm sure so would they. And before you just brush off the idea and suggest businesses wouldn't do that, tell it to Montreal in the wake of Bill 101. The 404 is a lot shorter migration than the 401.
The clear fact is that one connects to the Queen Elizabeth Way and Highway 427 and the other to Highway 404 and Highway 401. To suggest these expressways have nothing to do with the province is simply to deny the evidence of your own eyes and logic from the high horse you won't climb down from.
