Time To Accelerate Freeway Teardowns?

[Chuck]

In my experience, most construction related trades carry an all-inclusive labour rate of $50-100, depending on trade and years of experience. That includes base salary (usually 50% of that amount), benefits, union fees, and also the company's overhead and profit. I believe that a certain trade organization actually publishes the average labour rates, by region of the province, for different trades. Often labour rates for public contracts will be based on those published rates.

Engineering will typically be 5-15% of the total project cost. The labour rates for engineers are usually $100-175, depending on years of experience. Base salary is usually at most a third of that though.

 

[howl]

I agree that upgrading transit is the most important step in removing most of the Gardiner, however there are really two sections of the Gardiner. The section west of Yonge is critical to accessing the downtown from the west, but the section east of Yonge isn’t really serving the same purpose for commuters from the east. From the east people can get off the DVP at Bayview/Bloor, Richmond or Lakeshore and access downtown just as easily. The section between Yonge and the Don River could be eliminated without seriously affecting anybodies commute from the suburbs. The only people who would be negatively affected are the people coming from The Beach(s) who are driving to the west side of the City. Taking the section between Yonge and the Don River down would open up the eastern bayfront and reconnect that part of the waterfront to the City and not have a huge negative impact of commuters.

 

[Lone Primate]

The Gardiner isn't a major transportation corridor for the GTA

Yes it is; it just happens to be completely within one municipality--primarily because it was built by that municipality, which had no mandate to build beyond its boundaries. But to deny it's a major conduit for traffic in the GTA verges on delusional. Okay, the name changes at the border (used to be the Humber), but let's not kid ourselves; it's the eastern end of the Queen Elizabeth Way; no less. If someone were to tell me a quarter to a third of all the people coming into the downtown used it to get to and from their jobs everyday, I would hardly be surprised. I've been stuck in traffic on the thing on the WEEKENDS, and you want us to believe it's not a major transportation corridor for hundreds of thousands, MILLIONS of people every year simply because it's not Queen's Park's responsibility.

 

[nfitz]

If that were the case, the province wouldn't have downloaded it to the City.

There is no duty for the taxpayers of Toronto to maintain an expressway for people who simply want to drive through Toronto. And therefore there is also no point in the taxpayers of Toronto worrying about the impacts on non-Toronto origin/destination traffic of removing part of it

 

[Lone Primate]

If that were the case, the province wouldn't have downloaded it to the City.

They didn't. The Gardiner has always belonged to Metro; it was one of the first projects of the Metropolitan government. The only part that was "downloaded" was the stub of the QE from the 427 to the Humber, which (unlike the 427) was always an arbitrary demarcation point. The 427 made some sense as a cut-off point. Relatedly, the 404 north of the 401 to just beyond Sheppard was originally part of the Don Valley Parkway and was constructed by Metro. When the construction of the 404 was undertaken by the province in the mid-60s, Metro retired its plans to extend the DVP and "uploaded" that part of it (and Woodbine Avenue to Steeles) for the same reason: the 401 was an obvious delimiter that something like "...to 75 metres north of Sheppard Avenue" is not. Whether they like it or not, people in Thunder Bay, Timmins, Guelph, and Belleville got to pay for that. Would you care to give them a rebate? How about for their share of the subways most of them never get to see or use?

There is no duty for the taxpayers of Toronto to maintain an expressway for people who simply want to drive through Toronto. And therefore there is also no point in the taxpayers of Toronto worrying about the impacts on non-Toronto origin/destination traffic of removing part of it

Well, tell us, then: do you suppose there's any "duty" for the taxpayers of Toronto to maintain an expressway in order to get the food and products that stream into Toronto from other cities, provinces, and countries? Is there a "duty" to maintain an expressway so that the things we build or create in Toronto can be shipped outside of it where the vast majority of humankind (a.k.a. "customers") is to be found? If you don't care about commuters coming in, how about people who live in 416 but work in 905, like I did for ten years? Are we supposed to smile and suffer for your parochialism when the 905ers rightly reciprocate and stick it to us in return?

If you're anxious to get back to some sort of 12th Century feudal existence where we close the gates and pull up the drawbridges at sundown every night against the usurpatious infidels and fleece travelers at every mile house until the price of a pound of pepper is enough to mortgage your soul, be my guest. But please don't do it in my town; I like being able to get around without fretting about whose pool I'm presumed to be pissing in by dint of fact that I happen to hang my hat elsewhere. Speaking for myself, I'd like to go on living on the 21st Century where we realize the strengths and benefits accruing from the interdependency of millions upon millions of people -- as well as the reciprocal obligations such a society necessitates. Y'know, like letting people use the streets and sidewalks even if they don't happen to live there.

 

[GraphicMatt]

The only part of the Gardiner under review for potential demolition is the overbuilt and under capacity section east of Jarvis Street.

 

[Lone Primate]

The section between Yonge and the Don River could be eliminated without seriously affecting anybodies commute from the suburbs

And all those people on the Don Valley Parkway heading downtown; you do what with them, exactly...? Lakeshore Blvd wasn't quite what I'd have called a bowling alley even when I was taking it to work in the 90s. I can't imagine it's improved since then.

 

[GraphicMatt]

The vast majority of them get off at Bloor/Bayview or Richmond already. Check the stats.

 

[Lone Primate]

The vast majority of them get off at Bloor/Bayview or Richmond already. Check the stats.

What ARE the stats, since you bring them up?

 

[nfitz]

They didn't. The Gardiner has always belonged to Metro; it was one of the first projects of the Metropolitan government. The only part that was "downloaded" was the stub of the QE from the 427 to the Humber, which (unlike the 427) was always an arbitrary demarcation point.

Yes, I think we all know this. And precisely my point. It's never been considered anything more than a local highway, and this was reinforced when the province downloaded part of it a few years ago.

As such, we shouldn't be worrying about the impacts on through-Toronto traffic. If this was a real concern, MTO would be taking responsibility for it. They have no interest in doing that.

I'm not saying we should ban vehicles from out-of-town ... but we don't have to plan to attract them.

 

[nfitz]

And all those people on the Don Valley Parkway heading downtown; you do what with them, exactly...? Lakeshore Blvd wasn't quite what I'd have called a bowling alley even when I was taking it to work in the 90s. I can't imagine it's improved since then.

That's why they are planning on upgrading the Richmond/Adelaide exit as part of removing the Gardiner. Essentially the DVP would end there, and exit onto the Don Roadway or Richmond/Adelaide. This would help remove some of the congestion in the Lakeshore/Bay area.

The stats, BTW, were all broken out in the appendix of that study that was released a year or two ago; you know, the one they sat on for a long time, that had everyone up in arms.

Incidentally, I'm not in favour of removing the Gardiner.

 

[Dan416]

If that were the case, the province wouldn't have downloaded it to the City.

I'm glad Lone Primate called you on this because it's just another example of you lying to us. Why are you trying to deceive us? Why are you trying to misguide us when you know full well the truth?

 

[Electrify]

Last time I checked, there are people in Toronto who use the highway as well.

 

[nfitz]

I'm glad Lone Primate called you on this because it's just another example of you lying to us. Why are you trying to deceive us? Why are you trying to misguide us when you know full well the truth?

Uh ... what are you talking about. The Ontario government downloaded the piece of the Gardiner they used to have between 427 and Humber River.

 

[Dan416]

Uh ... what are you talking about. The Ontario government downloaded the piece of the Gardiner they used to have between 427 and Humber River.

Yeah exactly. A small part of the QEW. You didn't specify that in your original post, because you like to exaggerate and mislead and DECEIVE us.