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The End of Suburbia and Economic Apocalypse

There is always the option of trading in the SUV for something smaller and more efficient.

There is also the issue of higher gas prices having a greater effect on Torontonians vs. 905'ers. Seeing that more people from Toronto commute to the 905 for work than the other way around, and cannot utilize transit. For the 905'ers coming into the city, they can utilize public transit. This results in the effects of higher gas prices being felt more by those in the city proper than those outside of it. If higher energy prices are really going to pressure people to move closer to work, then with the higher percentage of GTA jobs being outside the city, Toronto's population might feel some downward pressure.
 
If higher energy prices are really going to pressure people to move closer to work, then with the higher percentage of GTA jobs being outside the city, Toronto's population might feel some downward pressure.

Nope. It's the 905 jobs that will be in trouble...people need to drive to them, and some, like all the distribution warehouses in Brampton, depend on trucks and air travel. Once the 905 office parks start hurting, retail will hurt, some people may move, and then institutions like schools will close, and the rest of the people (who are able to) will move. Given the relatively cheap and central real estate of much of the outer 416 like Scarborough, Toronto's population will be safe.
 
Nope. It's the 905 jobs that will be in trouble...people need to drive to them, and some, like all the distribution warehouses in Brampton, depend on trucks and air travel.

Are you suggesting that jobs in the 905 are going to be left unfilled because employers will not be able to get employees to fill them?

Once the 905 office parks start hurting, retail will hurt, some people may move, and then institutions like schools will close, and the rest of the people (who are able to) will move. Given the relatively cheap and central real estate of much of the outer 416 like Scarborough, Toronto's population will be safe.

Sounds like the reality of the 416 suburbs. Why do you think that these areas are cheap anyway? Why have they trailed so far behind in appreciating in value compared to the central core and the 905?
 
But cars running on biofuels and electricity don't solve our dependence on oil. They only mask it! Biofuels can only be grown in the vast quantities required if we dump tons of petroleum-based fertilizers on our otherwise dead farmland, and truck the resulting product all over the continent, rendering the energy gains from the whole process very small.

Biofuels are in a continuing process of improvement, and the outcome here is nowhere near as clear as the detractors point out. The energy gains of corn ethanol may be non-existent, but cellulosic ethanol and algae biodiesel and ethanol are all but some of the possibilities.


Electricity in North America is almost entirely generated by coal-fired plants, which spew more greenhouse gases than cars do. The best alternative for electricity is more nuclear generators, but it will be at least a decade before more of those come online, longer if many people continue to oppose them due to some fairly reasonable fears.

Almost entirely? About half of electricity in US is coal-based, and 1/5 in Canada. Opposition to nuclear is a dead end, and the governments know it. We will be seeing more reactors, certainly, whether Green Peace likes it or not.


It's not about being a "dictatorship" and "telling people" how to live. It's about looking objectively at our lifestyles and having those that choose to use the most resources pay for the true cost of their choices. Yes, you are free to live 100 miles from your workplace in an enormous McMansion and drive a fleet of Lincoln Navigators; but you should have to pay for that privilege, in terms of both money and convenience.

So who is not paying, exactly? Suburban municipalities have done a good job at taxing property. The developer pays for all the infrastructure, and the resulting maintenance is paid using municipal taxes - which are far more realistic than sustainable Toronto's, for example. The person driving the Lincoln Navigators is paying taxes and licencing fees for that car that equal billions of dollars in this province alone. Is some of this lifestyle subsidised? Yes. Is some of the urban city dweller life subsidised? Yes.


Right now that lifestyle is still cheap and convenient due to massive government funding of the highway infrastructure, free parking, low gas taxes, lack of tolls, etc.

All something that the car users pay for. I'm not sure why this keeps getting brought up in various threads and forums. Car users pay a substantial gas tax that is redirected to road repairs, among other things. I've no idea how gas taxes are low... They produce billions of dollars in revenue, of which about half go to road repairs.


Meanwhile sustainable car-free living is more expensive and inconvenient due to poor zoning laws that force businesses and jobs away from the homes we live in, as well as chronic underfunding of public transit.

This is an oversimplification. The underfunding of PT, I completely agree with.

But the zoning equation is much more complicated. The problem lies in the fact that still much of our employment is industrial in nature, requiring warehouses, factories, and similar. Though our industry is suffering, it's unlikely to die. Now when the separation of uses entered the original vernacular when zoning itself was introduced, it was not a bad thing. It evolved to be a bad thing, but separation of uses between industrial and residential lands was not a bad idea. Those old neighbourhoods in which people walked to the factories they worked in - it wasn't such a heaven living there. And though our factories are not as polluting as they once were, the industrial land use is guaranteed to lower the price of residential land considerably. If zoning was to die off tomorrow, we wouldn't suddenly live in Brussels or Zurich. There are real market concerns that are also at play here which are extremely difficult for planners to control.


The era of cheap gas that made unsustainable suburban living a "normal" state of being seems to be coming to an end, or at least evolving. Now we have an opportunity to fix some of the mistakes we've made in the past and revise the American/Canadian dream accordingly.

Some points here briefly:

- there is no indication that suburban living is unsustainable, except in a scenario where fossil fuels are the only was of powering a car. Otherwise, suburban living is sustainable, if not as efficient. HOWEVER, suburban homes can, in fact, be more efficient than inefficient urban environments.

- while gas is expensive, it's far from being unaffordable; I expect little change until it actually starts burning people's pockets. For now, I expect to see less SUVs on the road and fewer frill trips, which is nice.


To me, the end of suburbia as we know it is actually optimistic, not apocalyptic. I feel that if we play our cards right and stop clinging to outdated ideals of an unsustainable lifestyle we can end up with better, healthier, more sustainable ways of living. To simply ignore all these issues and stick with the status quo until we reach collective economic and environmental ruin is the truly depressing apocalyptic scenario.

Well, I think it represents some sort of wish fulfillment which I do not quite understand. I dislike suburbs, sure, but I get no sense of titillation at the thought it may fall like a house of cards. Why would I? Smarter planning can be achieved with suburbs very much in place. I'm not sure where this 'collective economic and environmental ruin' comes from, to tell the truth.

Economically, suburbs face similar risks to the inner city: they may rely on the industry slightly more, but if this sector completely folds, expect severe economic recession and poverty in the province of Ontario as a whole.

Environmentally, the issue of car ownership is important, but it's far from being the only pollutant; more importantly, the car need not be an environmental problem it is. It's not a lifestyle anybody is forcing on you. You have a choice in the matter. Nor is there any reason why suburbs can't grow smarter -- in fact, that's where many interesting planning ideas are happening today.


I agree strongly with PukeGreen's well elucidated points.

I will add to each of them:

Electric / biofuel cars - How many cars need to be plugged into Ontario's energy grid before it collapses? How expensive will electricity get when this starts to happen? How will Ontario obtain electricity from sources other than fossil fuels? I don't see any of this happening now (except for Nuclear) so the option of plugging in our cars works on a micro scale, but is not currently extensible. And gas prices are currently cheap.

If EVERY single car in the United States switched to electric, using currently available technology, a vast majority of them (75-80%) could be satisfied using existing production. Of course, the grid can be extended; nuclear power, for one, is quite cheap, aside from (relatively) high capital costs. If electric is the future, expect electric refueling stations to tax electricity at a cost far higher than normal in order to ensure stable capacity. Energy is not (very) expensive, and capacity can be added at a reasonable cost. Although nuclear, I guess technically, is not sustainable, we have enough supply for a few hundred million years. It's just not that big of a problem.


Suburbs - While nothing is going to make suburbia go away quickly, a permanent energy crisis will undermine the current value of properties in the suburbs, so the market itself will render deep burbs increasingly unprofitable and undesirable. Most prefer to buy houses in the burbs because they are affordable, but that "affordability" is being leached away. What will happen to them? I don't know, but I also don't care to see it.

Exurban property - I rather like the phrase 'deep burbs' - is already a choice of the upper middle class; it's not the affordability that makes people flock to the exurbs, even in the United States (with some exceptions). Gas prices, if they continue at present, will most certainly modify behaviors, at least in the short term. But expect smarter suburban growth and planning, not the disappearance of suburbs.
 
Are you suggesting that jobs in the 905 are going to be left unfilled because employers will not be able to get employees to fill them?

Exurban office parks could become decreasingly attractive, but most 905 companies would move or close before they get to the point that employers have trouble luring good workers out to the hinterland.

Oh, wait, I forgot...all 905 jobs are permanent.

Sounds like the reality of the 416 suburbs. Why do you think that these areas are cheap anyway? Why have they trailed so far behind in appreciating in value compared to the central core and the 905?

They've only trailed in the past few years, and that could change if the market collapses; use a longer term lens and the story changes, as it will change in the next few years should the market collapse. There's a great many people in Scarborough that have seen their homes quintuple in value in only 30 years, it's just that the houses were inexpensive to begin with, as opposed to the 905, where house prices were often intentionally exclusive via large lots or square footage. Of course, most of the 905 didn't exist 30 years ago so the appreciation cannot be properly compared.

Parts of the 905 are more demographically homogenous, more isolated, more dependent on longer commutes, and often have a lower quality housing stock than the 416...now that's the recipe for long-term success!
 
But cars running on biofuels and electricity don't solve our dependence on oil. They only mask it! Biofuels can only be grown in the vast quantities required if we dump tons of petroleum-based fertilizers on our otherwise dead farmland, and truck the resulting product all over the continent, rendering the energy gains from the whole process very small. Electricity in North America is almost entirely generated by coal-fired plants, which spew more greenhouse gases than cars do. The best alternative for electricity is more nuclear generators, but it will be at least a decade before more of those come online, longer if many people continue to oppose them due to some fairly reasonable fears.
Electricity can be created in many ways. At the moment less than half our energy here in ontario is created by coal, and all coal plants will be phased out COMPLETELY within the next 5-10 years. It's very possible to create renewable sources for electricity, and tons of research is already being put into that. Not to mention the two new nuclear reactors we have going up in darlington, and the retrofitting of the ones in bruce.

Overall I see the future of electric cars being very bright. I think once they become more prevalent, this whole sensationalism of suburbs being evil, and the panic over high gas prices, will fade quickly from people's memory. People will go back to living happily in their suburbs (or for some, in more urban areas). And everyone will be happy... just like they were a few years ago before gas prices started rising so rapidly.
 
Electricity can be created in many ways. At the moment less than half our energy here in ontario is created by coal, and all coal plants will be phased out COMPLETELY within the next 5-10 years. It's very possible to create renewable sources for electricity, and tons of research is already being put into that. Not to mention the two new nuclear reactors we have going up in darlington, and the retrofitting of the ones in bruce.

Overall I see the future of electric cars being very bright. I think once they become more prevalent, this whole sensationalism of suburbs being evil, and the panic over high gas prices, will fade quickly from people's memory. People will go back to living happily in their suburbs (or for some, in more urban areas). And everyone will be happy... just like they were a few years ago before gas prices started rising so rapidly.

I highly doubt that coal-fired plants will be phased out in 5 to 10 years. The combined generating capacity of the 4 remaining coal power plants (Atikokan, Lambton, Nanticoke and T-bay) is almost 6,500 MW. The additions to Darlington will, in a best case scenario, produce 3,500 MW and be operational by 2018 (assuming there are no delays). Even if we account for added renewable energy projects, such as the Niagara Tunnel Project (which cost a billion and adds a measly 194 MW to the system), we are still looking at a deficit of around 3,000MW in generating capacity if we abandon coal. It should also be mentioned that by the time the new reactors in Darlington are ready to go, the population of Ontario will have also increased by 1.5 million.
 
Hipster:

I think there a few units at Bruce that is undergoing refurbishment and will be turned on pretty soon; that and a few 100MW class renewable projects should tie up the gap.

That said, forget about cheap electricity - it doesn't matter what form the energy comes from - pushing a ton along a space for a certain distance will ultimately cost one dearly. That's not even including the additional cost of suburban living on top of transportation.

AoD
 
Anyone wonder if a population bust is on the horizon? Y'know, fewer kids for economic and lifestyle reasons, while the Limbaugh-loving trash undergoes Russian-style lowered life expectancies...
 
By the end of the century there may be a population bust. After that, it's a planet of old farts.
 
The point is we CAN generate electricity using green ways. Currently MORE than half our electricity is generated using hydro-electric power.. meaning clean.

As we move from oil power to electric power, we can worry about converting our energy grid to greener sources.

But for the moment, most people won't care. They will buy their electric cars, spend a few bucks a month charging them, and go on happily living in their big suburban houses.

People like the ones here will probably continue to mock their lifestyle, but they will probably just laugh at you from their pools in their backyards.
 
Do I use my money for gasoline or natural gas?

From Enbridge Gas, this newsrelease
mentions that the price of natural gas is going up July 1st.

Jun 19, 2008 14:39 ET

Enbridge Gas Distribution Adjusts Prices

TORONTO, ONTARIO--(Marketwire - June 19, 2008) - Enbridge Gas Distribution (TSX:ENB) (NYSE:ENB), a regulated utility, announced today that it has received approval from the Ontario Energy Board (OEB) for its July 1 rates. The changes are primarily due to an increase in North American natural gas prices and higher tolls to transport natural gas from Western Canada to Ontario. These costs are passed through to customers without any mark-up.

For typical residential customers(1) who buy their gas supply from Enbridge Gas Distribution, the changes will result in an increase of about $300 annually.

Residential customers who purchase their natural gas from a marketer will see the bill increase by about $33 annually. The Gas Supply Charge for these customers will depend on their contract with their marketers.

The Gas Supply Charge has increased to 39.0 cents per cubic metre (cents/m3) from 30.4 cents/m3. Enbridge Gas Distribution does not earn a profit on the price of natural gas. Customers who purchase their gas supply from Enbridge Gas Distribution pay the same price that the Company pays to purchase the natural gas in the North American market. Market prices are reviewed every three months and, if prices have gone up or down, Enbridge applies to the OEB for an adjustment to its prices to reflect the changes.

The cost of transporting natural gas from western Canada to Ontario has increased. Transportation costs are passed through without a mark-up to customers as part of the Delivery Charge.

Enbridge Gas Distribution earns an OEB-approved regulated rate of return, or profit, on the distribution of natural gas. This is included in the Delivery Charge. The July 1, 2008 rate adjustment does not include any changes to our rate of return.

...

Please see the backgrounder at http://media3.marketwire.com/docs/619enb.pdf for more information about Enbridge Gas Distribution prices.

(1) A typical residential customer uses 3,064 cubic metres of natural gas a year for home and water heating.

(2) Natural gas prices based on Enbridge Gas Distribution's July 1, 2008 Rate Adjustment. Electricity prices based on Toronto Hydro rates that went into effect May 1, 2008 and are approved by the Ontario Energy Board. Oil prices are based on rates as of May 2008. The calculations are done on an energy equivalent basis. Estimates do not include taxes or any rental or financing costs.

Please note that for those people who use the gas suppliers, the price is fixed during the life of the contract. Unfortunately, those who haven't yet done so, you may have only until noon on Monday to lock in a lower price, but only if the gas suppliers haven't raised their own prices yet. Go and start at energyshop.com before it is too late.

Check the Charges For Gas page on your gas bill and check the Gas Supply Charge. If ther is no name of a gas supplier and the price is 30.3556¢/M3 or 26.3952¢/M3, then do it. If the price is lower or higher, you should already have a gas supplier name visible. However, you may want to find out when your contract will expire.

It takes about 6 to 8 weeks for the paperwork to get through.
 
The suburbs will never end. People have been moving to the 'burbs since (at least) 1086. I fully expect they will continue to expand until the 401 is the main hwy through an enormous suburban city, from Windsor to the Quebec border.

Ever heard of compressed air cars? The shape of suburban houses will change, but people will always seek a fantasy life in the "country."

"The End of Suburbia and Economic Apocalypse" is merely another loony theory propagated by liberal urban elitists to further enhance their bottom line at the expense of the middle class. It is the new "cold war." These egomaniacs need to be ignored!
 
^I agree. The thing I don't get is, who gives wingnuts like Kunstler a podium from which to speak? He just comes across as a tree-hugging, alarmist Marxist who makes Noam Chomsky seem reasonable because his ideas don't stand up to any kind of logic or empiricism.

His argument boils down to:

WE'RE ALL DOOMED!!!! GET OUT NOW!!! RUN FOR YOUR LIVES!!!

:rolleyes:
 

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