The ‘Manhattanization’ of downtown Toronto

[Chuck]

I think the lack of any natural boundaries inhibiting Toronto's growth like in Vancouver and NY is the reason it isn't MORE like Manhattan or Hong Kong....even Barcelona to an extent has some natural boundaries.

Not so convinced. Being and island (or grouping of islands) hasn't exactly stopped sprawl in New York City. Sprawl on Long Island extends for over 100 km to the east, and it also continues well northward from the Bronx and west into New Jersey. New York can sprawl NW, NE, and SW whereas Toronto can only sprawl NW and NE. New York (and especially its inner suburbs) are only as dense as they are because it was the most populous city in the world just before cars became affordable to the masses.

 

[TonyV]

Manhattanization of Toronto, what a great idea. I just got back from Manhattan, it was beauteous. Wide sidewalks, magnolia trees coming into bloom everywhere, exciting things to do on every block, great eateries, subways going everywhere, buses in abundance, lovely and well-used squares, cheap taxis, gracefully proportioned tall buildings of every style .. an opera that gets all the greatest singers in the world .. I'm all in favour of Manhattanizing Toronto. LOL.

 

[junctionist]

If we've become more similar to Manhattan through growth, fine. But we need to have an aesthetic and functional vision for our city that implements the most creative practices of urban planning from around the world, from throughout history. One that responds to the local geography. By aspiring to be Manhattan or Chicago, the result will be probably be blander than either and will not satisfy anyone. The trick is to construct a city that will impress people from the established great cities rather than boring them with "look, we're almost like you".

 

[BMO]

Not so convinced. Being and island (or grouping of islands) hasn't exactly stopped sprawl in New York City. Sprawl on Long Island extends for over 100 km to the east, and it also continues well northward from the Bronx and west into New Jersey. New York can sprawl NW, NE, and SW whereas Toronto can only sprawl NW and NE. New York (and especially its inner suburbs) are only as dense as they are because it was the most populous city in the world just before cars became affordable to the masses.

That's a valid point, I am not too well informed on the densities on Manhattan Island proper, but I would imagine that There is little to no room for population accommodation, the area has sprawled due to lack of space on the island proper, and thus on the mainland areas like Brooklyn, etc there are no real boundaries to growth, and hence, I guess the sprawl attitude must have come in.

 

[BMO]

If we've become more similar to Manhattan through growth, fine. But we need to have an aesthetic and functional vision for our city that implements the most creative practices of urban planning from around the world, from throughout history. One that responds to the local geography. By aspiring to be Manhattan or Chicago, the result will be probably be blander than either and will not satisfy anyone. The trick is to construct a city that will impress people from the established great cities rather than boring them with "look, we're almost like you".

I think Toronto does have a unique look in comparison to many cities. I'm a tour guide at the CN tower and everyone always comments on the amount of green space that is found RIGHT in the downtown, as well as the amount of houses find mere blocks from the central financial district. Toronto is quite a great salad bowl of mixed uses and creative harmony between them. If we could get the Waterfront done, I think that THAT will be what pushes us and separates us from the pack, and will really push the city into the world spotlight.

This is a very exciting time to live in Toronto. Every passing year the Downtown becomes more and more interesting to take in, and I believe this is just the start. The city really truly is at the start of becoming one of the greater cities of our time.

 

[taal]

I think Toronto does have a unique look in comparison to many cities. I'm a tour guide at the CN tower and everyone always comments on the amount of green space that is found RIGHT in the downtown, as well as the amount of houses find mere blocks from the central financial district. Toronto is quite a great salad bowl of mixed uses and creative harmony between them. If we could get the Waterfront done, I think that THAT will be what pushes us and separates us from the pack, and will really push the city into the world spotlight.

This is a very exciting time to live in Toronto. Every passing year the Downtown becomes more and more interesting to take in, and I believe this is just the start. The city really truly is at the start of becoming one of the greater cities of our time.

I've never really got this particular bit, the Toronto has houses close to downtown ... just about all cities I've been to, less new york. All have closes fairly close to their downtown as well. Boston / Chicago / Montreal / San Francisco / ... the list goes on.

But I think you make a great point, why strive to be something we just plain will never be. We'll never by new york or anything close to it. That's fine as well.

 

[BMO]

When I've been to all the cities mentioned above, they do NOT have the same degree of low density housing within the core...San Fran, Chicago, Boston...they all have 4-5 story apartments, I've been to all those cities and have always noticed the lack of detached houses or town houses in the core, or if there were any, it was not to the same degree as Toronto. MTL would be the only exception that would be similar to Toronto in this regard.

I don't know if you're trolling about never being New York, but I guess that's how you feel. I personally would not like to become like New York, I would much rather like to follow in the steps of Boston. But that's not to say we can't have our unique identity. TBH, Boston is my favourite city in the U.S. and I really don't see it as having much of an Identity apart from the historical connections, but it is a city that is quite enjoyable to be in.

 

[Chuck]

I've always said that it will be interesting to see how we deal all of those detached houses. Demand for housing far exceeds the capacity that they provide in places like Little Italy, Parkdale, the Annex, and so on. In a way, the detached homes make those areas what they are. In another way, they are very much holding growth back new growth.

This latest condo boom will likely eat up every remaining parking lot, warehouse conversion, and industrial lot. We'll very soon be in a situation where you either demolish (already happening with that plaza on Yonge) or put a stop to growth in certain areas.

 

[Chuck]

That's a valid point, I am not too well informed on the densities on Manhattan Island proper, but I would imagine that There is little to no room for population accommodation, the area has sprawled due to lack of space on the island proper, and thus on the mainland areas like Brooklyn, etc there are no real boundaries to growth, and hence, I guess the sprawl attitude must have come in.

New York's boroughs did sprawl outward from Manhattan, but they are 'subway suburbs' as opposed to streetcar suburbs. The old City of Toronto's density is about 7,000 per square kilometre. Brooklyn's is about 14,000 while The Bronx is about 13,000 and Queens is 8,000. Manhattan is about 27,000. Although sprawl undeniably occured in the 1800s and early 1900s, it was very different from today due to how people got around!

If you want to see how New York is truly different from Toronto, spend some time off of Manhattan.

 

[TonyV]

Manhattanization of Toronto, what a great idea. I just got back from Manhattan, it was beauteous. Wide sidewalks, magnolia trees coming into bloom everywhere, exciting things to do on every block, great eateries, subways going everywhere, buses in abundance, lovely and well-used squares, cheap taxis, gracefully proportioned tall buildings of every style .. an opera that gets all the greatest singers in the world .. I'm all in favour of Manhattanizing Toronto. LOL.

My response above was in total sarcasm of course. We enjoy 3 days in Manhattan every year, preferring mid April to other dates (before NYC gets its nasty summertime odors). While Manhattan is enthralling, to say the very least, I was never so happy to see Toronto as I was on my return on Thursday. A city doesn't have to be "Manhattanized" to be a "great city of the world" and I, for one, am quite enthused with the Toronto we've got these days; Toronto has a way of being genteel and at the same time very urban in a laid-back matter-of-fact way; it is definitely not Manhattan. There is only one Manhattan (sorry, Chicago) - and I don't want Toronto to imitate/emulate Manhattan at all.

What we see going on in Toronto, simply put, is a fundamental shift in the way people choose to live, and most importantly, the shift is still unfolding -- local leaders are not realizing that urban intensification calls for transit intensification, and not just "out there" but in the core of the city itself.

 

[lafard]

I've always said that it will be interesting to see how we deal all of those detached houses. Demand for housing far exceeds the capacity that they provide in places like Little Italy, Parkdale, the Annex, and so on. In a way, the detached homes make those areas what they are. In another way, they are very much holding growth back new growth.

This latest condo boom will likely eat up every remaining parking lot, warehouse conversion, and industrial lot. We'll very soon be in a situation where you either demolish (already happening with that plaza on Yonge) or put a stop to growth in certain areas.

I figure those houses have a while yet. The next wave will be heavy redevelopment along the currently low-rise arterials. That U of T residence at College and Spadina is the warning shot. Between those and ongoing brownfield redevelopments we have at least one or two more real estate cycles of development sites.

This is why they are trying to develop the suburban arterials, allowing some relief of space constraints downtown. Even allowing redevelopment where it makes some sense - for example that little pocket west of Grange Park - would cause riots.

I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with keeping lowrise housing stock downtown. Even on Manhattan there are large swaths of (relatively) lowrise areas, including townhouses.

 

[ladyscraper]

We enjoy 3 days in Manhattan every year, preferring mid April to other dates (before NYC gets its nasty summertime odors). While Manhattan is enthralling, to say the very least, I was never so happy to see Toronto as I was on my return on Thursday.

I know how you feel. I go to NYC every year with my wife because she is from there so we visit her family and friends. We have a great time there but when we come back I always feel so happy to be home. I start to notice the differences between the cities that make Toronto the better place for us. If you make a list of features of the 2 cities, it would seem like New York is much better... in reality though we feel a lot better living here. So there is definitely a lot more to a city than just intensification. I hope Toronto keeps getting more urban while still having those odd quiet side streets that make the hustle of a big city much more bearable.
Basically I agree with the article that a Manhattanization is taking place but I hope Toronto is able to keep those laid back pockets that give our city character and charm.

 

[taal]

I know how you feel. I go to NYC every year with my wife because she is from there so we visit her family and friends. We have a great time there but when we come back I always feel so happy to be home. I start to notice the differences between the cities that make Toronto the better place for us. If you make a list of features of the 2 cities, it would seem like New York is much better... in reality though we feel a lot better living here. So there is definitely a lot more to a city than just intensification. I hope Toronto keeps getting more urban while still having those odd quiet side streets that make the hustle of a big city much more bearable.
Basically I agree with the article that a Manhattanization is taking place but I hope Toronto is able to keep those laid back pockets that give our city character and charm.

Can you elaborate on this at all ? Not that I disagree with you in the sightless, but I'm curious what set's Toronto apart in your opinion i.e. what makes this a better place to live for you ?

 

[taal]

When I've been to all the cities mentioned above, they do NOT have the same degree of low density housing within the core...San Fran, Chicago, Boston...they all have 4-5 story apartments, I've been to all those cities and have always noticed the lack of detached houses or town houses in the core, or if there were any, it was not to the same degree as Toronto. MTL would be the only exception that would be similar to Toronto in this regard.

I don't know if you're trolling about never being New York, but I guess that's how you feel. I personally would not like to become like New York, I would much rather like to follow in the steps of Boston. But that's not to say we can't have our unique identity. TBH, Boston is my favourite city in the U.S. and I really don't see it as having much of an Identity apart from the historical connections, but it is a city that is quite enjoyable to be in.

Back to the houses for a second, San Fran, Chicago and Boston definitely have a lot of houses close to their core! I'll look for picture support to back that up and get back to you.
Also, it really depends how you define the core. Toronto has a sort of I shaped area with very little in the way of housing. That would be, On Bloor, then straight down Yonge (on both sides a little) then across King W and Kind E (this stretches a little north and south in both directions.

I mean if you're referring to the area north of Bloor, no there are very comparable places in many cities, particular if you consider that Bloor is 3K North of the core per say. But maybe the east and west side of yonge ? Maybe in that sense we do have a little more houses close to the 'core'. More yes but the other cities have some as well.

I think a big difference is Toronto has very little in the way of 3-6 story apartment complex whereas say Boston and Montreal have a lot of these. Toronto actually has a decent amount to the north (around St. Clair).

Regarding the New York comment I didn't mean it in a negative way. New York city has over 8 million people. How can we ever reach that density ? We just won't. Again that's not bad. Maybe we can compare small areas of New York to Toronto. That's fair. I meant on the hole we'll never be that similar

 

[adma]

I think a big difference is Toronto has very little in the way of 3-6 story apartment complex whereas say Boston and Montreal have a lot of these. Toronto actually has a decent amount to the north (around St. Clair).

Something to reflect upon: Toronto's relative lack of pre-WWII multistory flats compared to other places, alongside its abundance of *post*-WWII multistory stretching out into the 'burbs...