Save Transit City Canvass!

[nfitz]

That does seem a bit odd to me, especially because Malvern will see virtually no benefit from Transit City (or at least its current version), as the SRT will stop at Sheppard.

The Sheppard East RT runs all the way along Sheppard, along the edge of Malvern. Even those near Malvern Town Centre will see significant improvements in travel times on trips to both Danforth and Yonge with the construction of Sheppard East and the SRT extension.

 

[gweed123]

The Sheppard East RT runs all the way along Sheppard, along the edge of Malvern. Even those near Malvern Town Centre will see significant improvements in travel times on trips to both Danforth and Yonge with the construction of Sheppard East and the SRT extension.

How? Suppose you live at Malvern Town Centre. Wait for a bus at MTC, take a 2 min drive to Sheppard and Progress. Wait for the SLRT. Take the SLRT to Kennedy. Transfer at Kennedy. Wait again for the subway train to leave... This is more efficient than a bus from MTC to STC, and a B-D extension to STC HOW??? Unless you live within walking distance of Sheppard and Progress, all this does for you is create a huge pain in the ass.

 

[nfitz]

How? Suppose you live at Malvern Town Centre. Wait for a bus at MTC, take a 2 min drive to Sheppard and Progress. Wait for the SLRT. Take the SLRT to Kennedy. Transfer at Kennedy. Wait again for the subway train to leave...

It's still a lot faster than it is now. Currently from Malvern Town Centre the fastest way (to say Bloor/Yonge) is to take the 131, which takes over 30 minutes to get to to Kennedy, assuming it doesn't get stuck in traffic (at least accord to Google maps at 8 AM - personally I'd get off at Scarborough Town Centre and take the SRT ... but Google seems to think this takes longer by the time you catch the SRT).

Once the SRT is extended, it would be a 6-minutes route to the Sheppard/Markham SRT station, 17 minutes from that SRT station to Kennedy (assuming that the 3.5 km extension has the same average speed as the existing 6.5 km routes), and say 3 minutes to change. That's 26-minutes. And no traffic jams over the 401. And the time to change at at Kennedy will be significantly reduced with only one story to climb, instead of 3.

Less travel time and a more reliable service. How is this not a benefit to the people currently living in Malvern? And after 2020, Metrolinx still is planning on building the $386-million extension to Malvern Town Centre. They won't get that anytime soon if the subway is extended to Scarborough Centre.

 

[gweed123]

It's still a lot faster than it is now. Currently from Malvern Town Centre the fastest way (to say Bloor/Yonge) is to take the 131, which takes over 30 minutes to get to to Kennedy, assuming it doesn't get stuck in traffic (at least accord to Google maps at 8 AM - personally I'd get off at Scarborough Town Centre and take the SRT ... but Google seems to think this takes longer by the time you catch the SRT).

Once the SRT is extended, it would be a 6-minutes route to the Sheppard/Markham SRT station, 17 minutes from that SRT station to Kennedy (assuming that the 3.5 km extension has the same average speed as the existing 6.5 km routes), and say 3 minutes to change. That's 26-minutes. And no traffic jams over the 401. And the time to change at at Kennedy will be significantly reduced with only one story to climb, instead of 3.

Less travel time and a more reliable service. How is this not a benefit to the people currently living in Malvern? And after 2020, Metrolinx still is planning on building the $386-million extension to Malvern Town Centre. They won't get that anytime soon if the subway is extended to Scarborough Centre.

How long does it currently take to get from Malvern to STC? 15 minutes? A 20% reduction because of BRT lanes and POP can be assumed, which brings it down to about 12 minutes. Assuming 35 km/h for the subway (with a distance of about 5.7 km), it would take around 10 minutes for the train to reach Kennedy (and that's a conservative estimate, because the stop spacing on this extension would be more akin to the North Yonge segment). That's 22 minutes, with 1 transfer instead of 2. It also provides BRT to Malvern, and a direct subway connection to STC.

 

[nfitz]

How long does it currently take to get from Malvern to STC? 15 minutes? A 20% reduction because of BRT lanes and POP can be assumed, which brings it down to about 12 minutes.

16 minutes at current traffic levels. Transit City is based on 2031 traffic levels, which have been forecasted to increase significantly. You might gain something now, but you could have lost it by 2031.

Assuming 35 km/h for the subway (with a distance of about 5.7 km), it would take around 10 minutes for the train to reach Kennedy (and that's a conservative estimate, because the stop spacing on this extension would be more akin to the North Yonge segment). That's 22 minutes

Uh ... you used 0 minutes to transfer from bus to train. And 0 minutes to wait for the train. (this is why planners shouldn't be doing math! Yes, you do save a minute or two more with a subway ... but that's not what I was refuting.

What I was refuting is that those at Malvern Town Centre don't see any gain from Transit City, compared to the status-quo.

I could also point out that 26 minutes will drop to 20 minutes once the SRT is completed to Malvern Town Centre ... which would cost less than your subway, and provide service to a lot more people.

 

[gweed123]

16 minutes at current traffic levels. Transit City is based on 2031 traffic levels, which have been forecasted to increase significantly. You might gain something now, but you could have lost it by 2031.

But curbside BRTs are subject to the exact same traffic issues as in-median LRT. The only difference is where they are located within the road ROW.

Uh ... you used 0 minutes to transfer from bus to train. And 0 minutes to wait for the train. (this is why planners shouldn't be doing math! Yes, you do save a minute or two more with a subway ... but that's not what I was refuting.

Ok, so add 2 minutes to transfer. But I must also point out that the BRT service would be at a higher frequency than the current bus is. You could be waiting the same amount of time at MTC, but you could also be waiting 8 minutes less. The BRT eliminates a lot of the wild card at MTC (and likewise at STC on the return trip).

What I was refuting is that those at Malvern Town Centre don't see any gain from Transit City, compared to the status-quo.

They may see an indirect benefit, but it's not like on Eglinton where the LRT will be at your front door, or you'll have a station within walking distance. Only a small percentage of Malvern will actually benefit from it in that form.

I could also point out that 26 minutes will drop to 20 minutes once the SRT is completed to Malvern Town Centre ... which would cost less than your subway, and provide service to a lot more people.

I think "IF" would be a better word to use in that scenario. I think that once the SLRT is extended to Sheppard, the Malvern extension will very much be on the backburner (With Eglinton West, Finch Central, hopefully the DRL, Yonge Extension, and maybe the DMLRT going ahead of it). 2031 would be considered quick. And for those not living within walking distance of the extension, it will still require 2 transfers in order to get onto the B-D subway. You do make a good point though. I just think that a subway extension to STC is a better long-term investment, and will be a much greater convenience to passengers.

 

[GraphicMatt]

I could really go either way on the subway-to-STC versus LRT replacement issue (They just need to do SOMETHING to replace the SRT before it dies completely) but I do think one of the unsung benefits of the LRT network in Scarborough approach is it allows for much cheaper expansion in the future, so a line to Malvern would be entirely within the realm of possibility even if the province wasn't offering additional funding.

 

[gweed123]

I could really go either way on the subway-to-STC versus LRT replacement issue (They just need to do SOMETHING to replace the SRT before it dies completely) but I do think one of the unsung benefits of the LRT network in Scarborough approach is it allows for much cheaper expansion in the future, so a line to Malvern would be entirely within the realm of possibility even if the province wasn't offering additional funding.

I admit that the SLRT would definitely be a plus over what is currently there. But let's face it, transfers are a pain in the ass, especially when the transfer is along a linear corridor. I liken it to a jog in a road. Yes, I understand why it's there, because you didn't want to spend the extra money to go over or under the obstacle. But it's still a pain none the less. The transfer at Kennedy is to transit in Scarborough what the Dufferin jog was to the Dufferin bus: a pain in the ass. I will admit, the scale in getting rid of the "jog" is quite different between the two, but I think the analogy is apt.

 

[kEiThZ]

It's still a lot faster than it is now. Currently from Malvern Town Centre the fastest way (to say Bloor/Yonge) is to take the 131, which takes over 30 minutes to get to to Kennedy, assuming it doesn't get stuck in traffic (at least accord to Google maps at 8 AM - personally I'd get off at Scarborough Town Centre and take the SRT ... but Google seems to think this takes longer by the time you catch the SRT).

This is where local knowledge helps. If you are at MTC and heading downtown, the only reason you'd take the Neilson bus is if you were actually standing on that side of the mall. I would take the Nugget, the Milner or the Progress bus, all of which would get me to STC in 20 - 25 mins (variability on time of day). I used to live off Washburn Way. And it used to take me under 20 mins to reach STC during rush hour. Sometimes as little as 15-17 mins. No Malvernite takes the Neilson bus to get to STC unless he/she lives off that route. Heck, the main entrance of MTC isn't even on Neilson.

Once the SRT is extended, it would be a 6-minutes route to the Sheppard/Markham SRT station, 17 minutes from that SRT station to Kennedy (assuming that the 3.5 km extension has the same average speed as the existing 6.5 km routes), and say 3 minutes to change. That's 26-minutes. And no traffic jams over the 401. And the time to change at at Kennedy will be significantly reduced with only one story to climb, instead of 3.

The bus to a subway at STC combo would only be somewhat longer to Kennedy. I'd say 35 mins in total in the worst case scenario. 25 mins to STC (from MTC) and 11 mins to Kennedy (including transfer at STC). That's a 10 min difference. And this is compared to the SRT extension. It's still better than what's there today because you've gotten rid of one transfer. And for that trade-off, the rest of Scarborough benefits. Also you aren't shutting down the SRT for a year. Imagine what that's going to do to Malvern and the rest of Scarborough.

And all this is predicated on travelling from MTC....which is itself a ridiculous proposition. Stand around at a bus stop near MTC and have a look at how many people actually get on or off at the mall. This is actually one of my beefs with this whole analysis. They took an arbitrary point in the community and concentrated all the ridership there. I could grudgingly accept the technique when the SLRT was going to MTC. But it makes absolutely no sense if it's not.

Less travel time and a more reliable service. How is this not a benefit to the people currently living in Malvern? And after 2020, Metrolinx still is planning on building the $386-million extension to Malvern Town Centre. They won't get that anytime soon if the subway is extended to Scarborough Centre.

The rest of Scarborough suffers. And if you now want to get just to STC...which happens a lot for Malvernites, you have to transfer just to do that. And none of this still addresses how the bus routes will be arranged for travel along the corridors. What do you do with the Milner, Nugget, Neilson, etc. buses? Are we going to start splitting every bus route in Malvern. So basically, if you are going downtown this helps. For every other travel scenario, you are worse off becuase of new transfers.

 

[Dan416]

I really don't think Eglinton is in danger. But if push comes to shove, I'd rather see SELRT die to feed Eglinton and replace the SRT with subway.

 

[GenerationW]

Sounds like the next canvass will be in Malvern. Will be interesting to talk to people there and find out what they really think of the various options.

If you had visited the Transit City office on Glen Watford as I did a number of times, you'd know that most of the Mavernites and other Scarborough residents who came in said pretty much the same thing. I think their mayoral candidate of choice even got elected.

By the way, the person who works (worked?) there is a great guy. Super hire by the TTC!

I really don't think Eglinton is in danger. But if push comes to shove, I'd rather see SELRT die to feed Eglinton and replace the SRT with subway.

A little bird tells me Eglinton will be put off, and a Sheppard subway will be fast-tracked (all subject to change of course). Ford doesn't want to cheese off his suburban constituents, and Sheppard trumps Eglinton for that.

 

[nfitz]

If you had visited the Transit City office on Glen Watford as I did a number of times, you'd know that most of the Mavernites and other Scarborough residents who came in said pretty much the same thing.

Which is?

 

[gweed123]

A little bird tells me Eglinton will be put off, and a Sheppard subway will be fast-tracked (all subject to change of course). Ford doesn't want to cheese off his suburban constituents, and Sheppard trumps Eglinton for that.

If this bird works around the Mayor's office, I wouldn't put much weight behind it. If they work for the TTC, it's 50/50. If they work for Metrolinx, we're f***ed.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

The last thing light rail lobbyists should be doing is canvassing the public. Most people have no idea what's going on in terms of transit and telling them about is a good way to move them from the blissfully ignorant middle to the opposition. Transfer City's best chance at going forward is to do so as quietly as possible.

Most people in Malvern won't benefit from the SRT extension, by the way, and Malvern only supplies about 20% of the SRT's ridership. Every bus route in Malvern will need to remain even with the SRT extension. But we have to "bring rapid transit" to Centennial and beyond because Malvern is worth more than the rest of the city. Well, that's easy to do. Extend the subway to STC and then run an LRT line along Progress [via Corporate/Consilium, an enormous and growing pocket of people being completely bypassed by the SRT extension]. But that would actually help lots of people move around the city, which isn't the point of Transfer City. 80% of people won't benefit because that 20% is all that matters to the people who created the transit plan.

You'd probably get more support by canvassing in Montreal, unless the plan to just get a bunch of friends together and go out to Malvern to create a crowd of supporters.

 

[SimonP]

The last thing light rail lobbyists should be doing is canvassing the public. Most people have no idea what's going on in terms of transit and telling them about is a good way to move them from the blissfully ignorant middle to the opposition. Transfer City's best chance at going forward is to do so as quietly as possible.

Over the course of the election I spoke to several hundred people about transit issues, and this isn't true at all. You just have to mention that LRT will cost them fewer tax dollars, and any preference for subway quickly vanishes.