urbanboom
Active Member
^ If what I'm proposing is "utopian" than London, Paris, Tokyo and NY must be heaven on earth! The only people that drive are the ones who do so for a living: cabbies.
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^ If what I'm proposing is "utopian" than London, Paris, Tokyo and NY must be heaven on earth! The only people that drive are the ones who do so for a living: cabbies.
urbanboom
Active Member
Yes, we should spend money fixing up those bridges as well as poking more holes through them, like what they are doing with lower Simcoe street.
Dichotomy
Banned
Ever hear of 'remote starter?' Or underground parking? Normally, I"d walk to the Eaton Center, but during one nasty blizzard last December the sidewalks nor any of the side streets had been ploughed yet, so we drove to the Bay (free parking on Sunday with purchase of more than $40) and we spent the afternoon in the Eaton Center.
Generation has nothing to do with it. I have friends without cars, too - and they often want to 'tag along' with us when we go on trips. A friend of mine in the Distillery District could BUY a car with what he spends on taxis to the 'village.'
Driving is often hell, but it is still faster and more convenient than the TTC. No contest.
When I lived at King/Dufferin it took me 15 minutes by car to my job at Avenue Rd/Bloor, 25 minutes by bicycle and 35 minutes by streetcar/subway. Mind you, that was in '83/'84. No telling how hellacious the TTC would be now with all the development along King St. since then.
Dichotomy
Banned
Well, when Toronto is bombed into the Dark Ages a couple times, grows to 10+ million and has gasoline at $5 a litre we can talk.
Translude15
Frank the Tank
I just came back from Chicago. They have a stunning waterfront in the downtown core, but they also have an 8-lane roadway like our Lakeshore that heads north from the core. They also have many one-way streets downtown and they have built their skyscrapers (like the Aeon Tower) on top of multi-layers of roads and parking - something that this city never even thought of. Their subway network fans in all directions, including express lines out of the core.
We can't do this Chicago comparison thing because we don't have their money.
Hmm, Toronto doesn't have money. Anybody with me on blaming the civil servants? Or is it not their fault? For the record though, Chicago's downtown and northern neighbourhoods is its saving grace. A large portion of the population lives in complete poverty, so Toronto takes the cake in that sense.
Chicago's Lakshore roadway actually moves north and south, and it's quite a wide road, however there is no real presence of street life on the Lakeshore in downtown, I'll tell you that much!
We can't do this Chicago comparison thing because we don't have their money.
Hmm, Toronto doesn't have money. Anybody with me on blaming the civil servants? Or is it not their fault? For the record though, Chicago's downtown and northern neighbourhoods is its saving grace. A large portion of the population lives in complete poverty, so Toronto takes the cake in that sense.
Chicago's Lakshore roadway actually moves north and south, and it's quite a wide road, however there is no real presence of street life on the Lakeshore in downtown, I'll tell you that much!
Dichotomy
Banned
From the Canadian Press today:
"332-billion km travelled last year
OTTAWA-A new study says Canadians have been slow to change their driving habits, in spite of higher gasoline prices.
Statistics Canada reports Canadians drove their vehicles 332 billion kilometres last year; that's 5.2 per cent more than in 2002.
The number of vehicles on the road also rose 9.4 per cent in six years and the agency reports that new motor vehicle sales in the first five months of this year have continued at a record pace.
The retail sales volume of gasoline rose 7.2 per cent from 2002 through 2007.
Another sign that driving habits have changed little: demand for urban transit has barely kept pace with population growth since 2002.
StatsCan says higher incomes and lower prices for other goods have partially offset the cost of higher consumption rates and gasoline prices."
The Death of the Auto has been reported (erronously) many times before. With 1 million people expected to infill Toronto over the next 20 years, the truck traffic alone will fill the Gardiner/DVP. To even discuss tearing down any part of our current highway infratructure is criminally stupid.
"332-billion km travelled last year
OTTAWA-A new study says Canadians have been slow to change their driving habits, in spite of higher gasoline prices.
Statistics Canada reports Canadians drove their vehicles 332 billion kilometres last year; that's 5.2 per cent more than in 2002.
The number of vehicles on the road also rose 9.4 per cent in six years and the agency reports that new motor vehicle sales in the first five months of this year have continued at a record pace.
The retail sales volume of gasoline rose 7.2 per cent from 2002 through 2007.
Another sign that driving habits have changed little: demand for urban transit has barely kept pace with population growth since 2002.
StatsCan says higher incomes and lower prices for other goods have partially offset the cost of higher consumption rates and gasoline prices."
The Death of the Auto has been reported (erronously) many times before. With 1 million people expected to infill Toronto over the next 20 years, the truck traffic alone will fill the Gardiner/DVP. To even discuss tearing down any part of our current highway infratructure is criminally stupid.
MisterF
Senior Member
None of this has anything to do with what I wrote. Nice rant though, keep up the good work!
Please prove there's any correlation between property values and ability to get around by car. Then show causation, without resorting to anectodes. You can top it off by showing examples of waterfront freeways that have been removed, causing property values to crash. Should be a good weekend project for you.
Yes, there are cities with 10+ million people, higher gas prices and smaller freeway systems that are thriving. Congratulations, you've just unwittingly refuted your own argument.
urbanfan89
Active Member
So it was said that Miller wants to demolish the Gardiner in order to increase property values in the area and get more tax $$$.
Now it's being said that property values will crash if the Gardiner is razed. As if CityPlace will suddenly ground to a halt.
Consistency, people! Consistency!
Now it's being said that property values will crash if the Gardiner is razed. As if CityPlace will suddenly ground to a halt.
Consistency, people! Consistency!
GraphicMatt
Looking forward to a FRESH START for Toronto
Not only that, but cities with extensive highway and road systems are some of the least desirable places to actually live. Here's a list of the "Ten Most Drivable Cities in America" from 2003:
Note the distinct lack of places like Chicago, New York, LA, Boston, Seattle... places where people actually desire to live and work.
urbanboom
Active Member
Normally, I"d walk to the Eaton Center, but during one nasty blizzard last December the sidewalks nor any of the side streets had been ploughed yet, so we drove to the Bay (free parking on Sunday with purchase of more than $40) and we spent the afternoon in the Eaton Center.
You live at Yonge and Bloor? I just guessing that taking the two subway stops to Dundas would be faster than driving through a blizzard and then trying to find underground parking in the Eaton Centre's vaults.
Driving is often hell, but it is still faster and more convenient than the TTC. No contest.
Then I suggest that we spend the money needed for the TTC to go above and beyond driving in the city. I'm sorry to say, but I still think you're a dying breed, Dichotomy. Driving's going to get a lot worse before it gets any better.
You live at Yonge and Bloor? I just guessing that taking the two subway stops to Dundas would be faster than driving through a blizzard and then trying to find underground parking in the Eaton Centre's vaults.
Driving is often hell, but it is still faster and more convenient than the TTC. No contest.
Then I suggest that we spend the money needed for the TTC to go above and beyond driving in the city. I'm sorry to say, but I still think you're a dying breed, Dichotomy. Driving's going to get a lot worse before it gets any better.
scarberiankhatru
Senior Member
By your accounting, potentially thousands of jobs in a wide range of fields and pay-scales aren't as great as a few dozen 'good jobs' at a cement plant. Screw the plans for a new community, let's build an oil refinery and a truck plant! Or maybe you'd be satisfied with a few Mennonite clans tilling the polluted portlands soil and hewing driftwood for end tables and bedroom separates
Can we move the Gardiner to Hamilton where it'll keep the good steel mill jobs company?
Long Island Mike
Senior Member
Points about Chicago and Toronto...and those Driveable cities...
Dichotomy: Let me clarify those things mentioned about Chicago: That highway you mention is called Lake Shore Drive. You mentioned the "L"/ Subway network in all directions operated by CTA but neglected to mention the big commuter rail network operating out of Downtown Chicago in all directions by METRA which is at least of equal importance to the CTA's transit network.
You mention the Aon Center-once known as the Standard Oil Building when it was constructed in the mid 70s-it was in a sort of isolated area near the Chicago River and Lakefront and because of that parking there was abundant.
That has changed with newer development-one benefit from the start was that the METRA Electric line's and South Shore Line's Randolph Street Station was close by.
You are right-substantial sections of the City of Chicago-and certain suburbs that mostly lie S of the City limits-have poverty issues. Toronto never suffered from the "White Flight" phenomonon that US cities like Chicago has.
Matt: Those 10 most driveable cities topic is interesting-I wonder what the Downtown populations of them actually are? The more driveable a City is it usually has a low population Downtown area-where few want to live.
Toronto has a balanced transportation system - like Chicago does - even though it can use improvements mentioned it is better to me than those "Driveable" cities anyday! LI MIKE
Dichotomy: Let me clarify those things mentioned about Chicago: That highway you mention is called Lake Shore Drive. You mentioned the "L"/ Subway network in all directions operated by CTA but neglected to mention the big commuter rail network operating out of Downtown Chicago in all directions by METRA which is at least of equal importance to the CTA's transit network.
You mention the Aon Center-once known as the Standard Oil Building when it was constructed in the mid 70s-it was in a sort of isolated area near the Chicago River and Lakefront and because of that parking there was abundant.
That has changed with newer development-one benefit from the start was that the METRA Electric line's and South Shore Line's Randolph Street Station was close by.
You are right-substantial sections of the City of Chicago-and certain suburbs that mostly lie S of the City limits-have poverty issues. Toronto never suffered from the "White Flight" phenomonon that US cities like Chicago has.
Matt: Those 10 most driveable cities topic is interesting-I wonder what the Downtown populations of them actually are? The more driveable a City is it usually has a low population Downtown area-where few want to live.
Toronto has a balanced transportation system - like Chicago does - even though it can use improvements mentioned it is better to me than those "Driveable" cities anyday! LI MIKE
Dichotomy
Banned
You show me how our transit system in any way compares to London or Paris. In many ways, Toronto is stuck between periods in time. Whereas, most of our growth occured after the advent of the automobile, our forefathers were still treating this city as a sleepy burg when they should have been looking to the future. Other North American cities that exploded in the post-war boom managed to widen and expand their road network, along with their highways and subways. Toronto started to in the '50s, then thanks to Jane Jacobs, everything slammed into a wall.
My arguments are intact, thank you very much, because their very basis is on the irrefutable fact that we don't have decent arterial roads anywhere in the core of the city. You have to drive far east (Leslie St. for Eglinton and Lawrence), far west (passed Jane for Eglinton, never for St. Clair, Islington for Bloor and Scarborough for Kingston Rd.) and far north (of the 401) to find any 6 lane arterial roads.
Los Angeles built a 8 lane road (hwy 1) under LAX, for Gawd's sake!
People who irrationally hate the Gardiner do not accept the fact that we have no alternate routes. Whether one wishes the auto away or not, truck traffic alone is becoming unmanagable in this city. Without the Gardiner we would have chaos and, eventually, property values would come down because the majority of people who do have cars will find it unbearable to live anywhere in the core.
To some extent it is happening now, as more growth is occuring outside the 416 area than within.
Dichotomy
Banned
Would you ever trust the government when it comes to money numbers? Read: Skydome. Read: MFP scandal. Read: Pickering refurbishment. They deliberately give BS numbers to hoodwink us.
There are plenty of developers waiting to cash in on a quick buck if the Gardiner came down, and I am sure (temporarily at least) property values would rise as suckers bought from pretty design brochures, but once everything was built and the Gardiner removed, a lot of people would wonder "WTF happened?"
Personally, I am holding my breath about what Liberty Village and all the development on the old railroad lines around Spadina are going to do to traffic as it is. The Gardiner currently is gridlocked east and west in the mornings. That's progress!
Dichotomy
Banned
Well, I doubt Chicago, New York, LA, Boston or Seattle will show up on lists of most desireable places to canoe and kayak, either. That's a pretty disengenuous argument, really.
There is a huge difference in the ability of a city to handle its 'rush hour' traffic and its Sunday afternoon traffic. LA, Boston and Chicago (to name 3 cities that I am familiar with) handle that traffic very well. Toronto does not.