Roads: Gardiner Expressway

[urbanfan89]

I don't know...maybe...you know...build better public transportation?

We're not going to demolish entire neighbourhoods just so car drivers can save five minutes every day.

 

[Translude15]

I don't know...maybe...you know...build better public transportation?

We're not going to demolish entire neighbourhoods just so car drivers can save five minutes every day.

Yeah, well let's see here...hmm... some sort of LRT-streetcar type system is going to encompass all of Toronto isn't it? Well try missioning from one end of the city to the other using that. It's not going to fly. It already takes an hour heading from Scarborough to Etobicoke on the subway. Do these planners really expect commuters to travel these enormous lengths of time?

How about taking the GO Train? The most heavily travelled corridor (Lakeshore West) has trains running once every hour outside of rush hour. And these rush hour trains? Well good luck finding a seat, because they are always packed to the brim.

Anybody want to try taking the bus? It's crowded, and the streets are crowded too. We'll be moving at about 25 km/hr today folks, not too fast not too slow.

Now I'm not against public transit at all, but in its current state, it is in dire need of an overhaul. Once that is said and done, the issues of the road will not just go away. They need to be addressed, and IMO Toronto needs to create a solid base for its road infrastructure through an improved freeway network.

 

[urbanboom]

I disagree with you.

Toronto I think is at a crossroads. I'm sorry to say this, but driving in the city is losing its clout: the TTC is having record breaking years and less people are taking driving. We can choose live and grow with it, (and I think we are starting to) or we could pretend it's 1968. BTW, people complain how much subways cost, but how much do you think tearing down the Annex and building a freeway would cost us, and our livabilty...

I just got back from London which is roughly TWICE the size of Toronto and has ZERO highways in the downtown core. But do you know how they survive? The tube goes freakin' everywhere! It's pretty hard not to be a few blocks away from a tube station. And it works, too! It's freeflowing and sure as hell faster than driving. (But there are some icky people on it..... EWW!!! People!!! *throw up*.)

And Toronto like to say that it's a world city in waiting:
The Big Four sure don't have the freeway system that we do.

I'm sorry, but the age of car culture has come, and now it is finally going...

 

[urbanfan89]

Yeah, well let's see here...hmm... some sort of LRT-streetcar type system is going to encompass all of Toronto isn't it? Well try missioning from one end of the city to the other using that. It's not going to fly. It already takes an hour heading from Scarborough to Etobicoke on the subway. Do these planners really expect commuters to travel these enormous lengths of time?

We already have the corridor. It's called the GO Bus.

How about taking the GO Train? The most heavily travelled corridor (Lakeshore West) has trains running once every hour outside of rush hour. And these rush hour trains? Well good luck finding a seat, because they are always packed to the brim.

Apparently GO Transit cannot be improved.

Anybody want to try taking the bus? It's crowded, and the streets are crowded too. We'll be moving at about 25 km/hr today folks, not too fast not too slow.

Still better than putting up with high fuel prices, car insurance premiums, depreciation, parking, and so on.

Now I'm not against public transit at all, but in its current state, it is in dire need of an overhaul. Once that is said and done, the issues of the road will not just go away. They need to be addressed, and IMO Toronto needs to create a solid base for its road infrastructure through an improved freeway network.

Okay, exactly how? This isn't 1965 and neighbourhoods aren't going to be paved over to create construction work.

 

[Zeeman28a]

As a resident on the Queen's Quay, I'm all for tearing down the Gardener Expressway all the way west and making the Lakeshore do double duty. But I'm against developers adding more high rise condos to our waterfront. It's bad enough as it is.

Parks, recreational facilities and maybe some low-rise (4-5 storey) condos with retail would be ok. Maybe turn a portion of our new waterfront to pedestrian only. Nice brick walkways lined with trees. Plenty of benches and tables for sitting and eating.

 

[kEiThZ]

As a resident on the Queen's Quay, I'm all for tearing down the Gardener Expressway all the way west and making the Lakeshore do double duty. But I'm against developers adding more high rise condos to our waterfront. It's bad enough as it is.

Parks, recreational facilities and maybe some low-rise (4-5 storey) condos with retail would be ok. Maybe turn a portion of our new waterfront to pedestrian only. Nice brick walkways lined with trees. Plenty of benches and tables for sitting and eating.

You're dreaming. The city council and the mayor only see one thing when they look at the Gardiner....dollar signs. They will tear down the Gardiner and then extend the wall of condos eastward and westward, laughing all the way to the bank with the increased property tax revenue. Waterfront? What waterfront?

 

[urbanboom]

^ I don't understand the whole "Wall of Condos". What does it matter. So what if we can see the water from the Gardiner, which will be torn down... You can't see over 5-story buildings anyhow.

How is that condos are a barrier? Is the financial district a "barrier" to the rest of the city? For me the Gardiner is the real barrier.

It is very possible to have a good waterfront with condos. In just about every city on the water, there are condos by it: Hong Kong, Vancouver, NY, you name it. People living by the water give it a base for vibrancy.

Yes, it is a shame that it didn't become parkland. That would have been fantastic. But that should have been planned half a century ago. It's far too late for that now. Creating downtown communities and stopping sprawl is the next best option.

 

[k.w.l.]

^ well said urbanboom, I couldn't agree more.

 

[gei]

Was offsite last week in Markham. I usually live/work downtown.

The gardiner/dvp route was very convinient. Would have really sucked if it wasn't there.

 

[urbanboom]

So we should keep it, because occationally you have to go to Markham?

If you live downtown, as your profile says, Richmond and Adelaide streets would be just as convenient as the unused stretch of Gardiner they want to tear down.

And the DVP isn't going anywhere, anytime soon.

 

[gei]

I live and work downtown... that was just a one time thing. But for the occasional time I do drive up that way, it is very nice to have that option. Going down Richmond and Adelaide would be incredibly annoying during rush hour, as they would be packed. I'm all the way at Spadina, so I'd have to go through the CBD, whereas heading East on the Gardiner from where I am moves smoothly.

Not to mention the fact that if the gardiner is ever torn down out there, Richmond and Adelaide out that way will become pure chaos.

There was plenty of traffic heading east out of downtown and up the dvp in the morning... I feel bad for all the people who have to do it regularly.. this will be a massive headache.

This whole thing is such a terrible idea it's hard to believe it's being seriously considered.

 

[kEiThZ]

^ I don't understand the whole "Wall of Condos". What does it matter. So what if we can see the water from the Gardiner, which will be torn down... You can't see over 5-story buildings anyhow.

How is that condos are a barrier? Is the financial district a "barrier" to the rest of the city? For me the Gardiner is the real barrier.

It is very possible to have a good waterfront with condos. In just about every city on the water, there are condos by it: Hong Kong, Vancouver, NY, you name it. People living by the water give it a base for vibrancy.

Yes, it is a shame that it didn't become parkland. That would have been fantastic. But that should have been planned half a century ago. It's far too late for that now. Creating downtown communities and stopping sprawl is the next best option.

I agree with you. However, development in Toronto hasn't occurred that way. How much parkland is there along the waterfront? We don't have anything like Vancouver's Stanley Park or even the vibrancy of Halifax.

Alright I can agree that the wall of condos is a bit of a spurious argument, but no more so than the Gardiner. I have never understood this argument about the Gardiner. Visually the condos block out more of a lake view than the highway does. When the 10 lane mini highway (i mean grand avenue) comes in, won't that be a barrier to the waterfront? It's pretty easy to cross under the Gardiner right now. And it would be even easier if Lakeshore wasn't there. All that being said, I have nothing against it being buried. But I have difficulty understanding what the mayor when he comes out and says that the waterfront will be significantly revitalized and "re-attached" to the city by replacing the Gardiner with the "grand avenue".

 

[adma]

Ultimately, to paint Toronto as a failure because of a lack of adequate highway network is like painting Toronto as a failure because those vulgarian SUV dads can't simply knock down a house or two or three for a three-car McMansion close to work downtown. (Yeah, you expect them to settle for a cramped condo or an old crock in Cabbagetown? Especially when nosy NIMBYs and zoning and heritage regulations get in the way?)

 

[k.w.l.]

I agree with you. However, development in Toronto hasn't occurred that way. How much parkland is there along the waterfront? We don't have anything like Vancouver's Stanley Park or even the vibrancy of Halifax.

Parkland does not equal vibrancy. There's a good amount of parkland already, and lots more on the way. As for vibrancy, have you been down there lately? South of Queen's Quay is packed with people from Yonge to Bathurst all the time (well, except for the winter). The central waterfront is pretty darn good right now, and with the West 8 changes it's going to be even better.

 

[smuncky]

There's plenty of parkland. The islands are one of the best parks in Toronto.