OLG Toronto/GTA casino proposal (where to put it?)

[MadMax]

What do you drive a horse and wagon? Forget it man... My point was made and Woodbine is not the boonies and not that far from Toronto. Your idea of downtow Toronto is different than my idea of downtown Toronto. I respect your peeviness

 

[neubilder]

I am definitely not missing Richard Florida, so I must be missing the point.

So what is the point? Looking ahead at your comments, it seems to me you mostly object to casinos because they are tacky - i.e. bad urban planning. Well, I agree. But lots of people like stuff I consider tacky, and this is a big city, so there is a place to put all that stuff and it won't bother me.

Definitely, a casino at the Ex would not bother me as much as the acres of space there currently wasted on empty parking lots. The parking lots are there, let's not forget, because until 25 years ago people used to enjoy going to the CNE, a tacky but fun source of entertainmment, for 2 weeks a year.

But now they seem to prefer casinos to fall fairs, so why are we wasting money and space on the Ex?

What would Frederick Law Olmsted do with a site like this? That is the question that needs to be asked for a site as scarce and prominent as this.

 

[adma]

And besides the travel-time issue, one should consider the *context* of Woodbine. Even if it's 10 or 15 minutes, it might as well be three times as long. (The way MadMax is talking about it, he might as well have Woodbine confused with *Old* Woodbine aka Greenwood.)

As for the Ex, I'd rather it collapse into a black hole of Direct Energy-type trade shows than a black hole of casino zombies.

 

[RC8]

At 1:00am you can make it from Union station to Dundas and Erin Mills in 15 minutes (in a cab).

That's the most impressive distance I've seen someone cover over such a short period of time from one GTA location to another. At any reasonable time, that same trip takes more than half an hour.

 

[neubilder]

What do you drive a horse and wagon? Forget it man... My point was made and Woodbine is not the boonies and not that far from Toronto. Your idea of downtow Toronto is different than my idea of downtown Toronto. I respect your peeviness

I love the idea of Woodbine as a site. Put all the casinos you want over there.

 

[Torontovibe]

If building a casino allows Ontario Place/Exhibition Grounds complete their renovations, I'm all for it. The Ex re-jig to allow for outdoor concerts and the refurbishing of the waterpark would be more than enough benefit for me to be happy to see Toronto fleece folks of their hard-earned dough.

Looking at the map, I'd probably build the casino on the west island, which has never been much of a draw:
http://www.ontarioplace.com/sites/default/files/at-the-park/park-map/2011-park-map-web.pdf

Why would you want to destroy a beautiful, iconic park on the waterfront for a casino? Have you never been to a casino? NO casino uses it's view for anything worth wild. In fact, they all block out the outside world, so you can't see anything. So what is the benifit of putting it on one of our few great waterfront sites? I think that's INSANE! Ontario Place is a fantastic setting with awesome buildings and I would be pained to see my favourite place on our waterfront turned into a tacky casino.

Ontario Place needs to be kept as a public park/attraction and not a dead zone, which is what it will become, once it's a casino. If it has to be in that area, I much prefer it on a CNE parking lot, so at least it wont effect Ontario Place. I love the setting and buildings of Ontario Place!

Woodbine Live is probably the best location for it.

 

[adma]

I think when people think of "West Island", they have some zombie-free Monte Carlo fantasia in mind...

 

[spider]

Ontario Place needs to be kept as a public park/attraction and not a dead zone, which is what it will become, once it's a casino. If it has to be in that area, I much prefer it on a CNE parking lot, so at least it wont effect Ontario Place. I love the setting and buildings of Ontario Place!

Correct, the last thing a Casino operator wants is a view to distract the gamblers from the tables. As far as choosing a site because it has lots of parking spaces on which to build remember that the Casino will probably need more parking than the site needs now. A casino and the EX or OP operating concurrently would need more parking that is currently available, not less.

 

[Riverdale Rink Rat]

I had to go back to my first post to figure out what I'd actually said, given the way this whole thread started meandering. My original point was if they're going to need a casino's revenues to refurbish OP and the Ex, and they agree to target the revenues for that purpose, then I'd be in favour of putting one as far out of the way as possible but still on the Ex/OP territory. If thoughts of the kiddies stuff on the west island of OP being killed horrifies y'all so much (quite frankly, the only thing iconic about OP to me is the Cinesphere and surrounding pods at this point), then put it up near Medieval Time/LibertyGrand/Queen Elizabeth theatre.

I don't gamble apart from the occasional lottery ticket, so I don't care if they put one in or not. As for the Atlantic City comparison, that place is a hole. Is it due to the gambling? Maybe, I don't know.

Lastly -- I use the Ex grounds a lot despite never having been to the Ex. Trade shows/riding/soccer games/Queen Elizabeth for concerts. The Liberty Grand and Medieval Times always seem to be drawing a crowd. Some cash to do their renovation seems like a practical application of other people's losses.

 

[spider]

I think the revenue realised by the City is a fixed amount irregardless of the site chosen or the success or lack of success that the Casino operation may enjoy. The City can spend the money they receive any way they choose.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Why would you want to destroy a beautiful, iconic park on the waterfront for a casino? Have you never been to a casino? NO casino uses it's view for anything worth wild. In fact, they all block out the outside world, so you can't see anything. So what is the benifit of putting it on one of our few great waterfront sites? I think that's INSANE! Ontario Place is a fantastic setting with awesome buildings and I would be pained to see my favourite place on our waterfront turned into a tacky casino.

Ontario Place needs to be kept as a public park/attraction and not a dead zone, which is what it will become, once it's a casino. If it has to be in that area, I much prefer it on a CNE parking lot, so at least it wont effect Ontario Place. I love the setting and buildings of Ontario Place!

Woodbine Live is probably the best location for it.

Ontario Place is DONE. A Casino there would be great. People go to Canada's wonderland now.

 

[Grimace]

While I won't deny the theoretical possibility of a properly designed casino/entertainment complex achieving some redevelopment objectives for the Ex or Ontario Place, there is no reason to expect that either the OLG or the Province can be relied upon to pursue such goals. The recent developments at OLG have shown that the Province has no interest in using the gambling carrot to assist the horse racing industry or employment in border towns. I think one can safely conclude that the OLG's sole interest and instruction is to maximize returns for the province. You can consider this right or wrong, but I think it is misguided to think that we can embrace the Casino in order to achieve some ancillary objective (other than to get a straight 5% of the return). The only possible way for this to work would be if the OLG was convinced that the Ex would be by far the most lucrative site and the City was able to insist that it would only allow the casino there if all these ancillary development objectives were met. But with a mayor in place who will never negotiate for such things, but instead will just want to get the 5% return to apply to subways or some such thing, a casino at the Ex or OP will destroy the development of these spots for anything other than some big casino/hotel/entertainment complex that will have no connectedness to the rest of its surroundings. It will be an ugly building, and a massive one. Not because it has to be this way, but because it will. If this is our fate, I would greatly prefer that it go at Woodbine.

 

[Riverdale Rink Rat]

Ontario Place is DONE. A Casino there would be great. People go to Canada's wonderland now.

Canada's Wonderland and Ontario Place don't really compete (yes, they both have waterparks, but that's about it.) Canada's Wonderland is about rollercoasters -- Ontario Place is (was) about the Cinesphere and the turntable concert venue (anybody else remember how much fun Edgefest was back in the day...?) IMAX 3-D in theatres has eaten the Cinesphere's lunch as well.

If you want to revive Ontario Place, IMO you need to host big events (the fireworks have worked in the past), combine the concerts with the other events, kill most of the other venues and concentrate on the waterpark and waterfront -- maybe an expansion for the first and a huge Polson Pier-style venue on the lake side for the latter? If you had the beach volleyball enthusiasts down there like Ashbridge's, the wee sailors learning like Cherry Beach, the dragonboaters like the island, you would be focusing on what is cool about OP -- i.e., that it's on the water. It could be 'Toronto's waterfront fun park'.

 

[MadMax]

I got some insider information last night folks...at my weekly poker game (how ironic) from one of the players. The permanent casino will be located at "drumroll please"....... The Ontario Place! Love it or not this is where it's gonna be. The poker buddy is a surveyor and a trusted source. Even though he does bluff sometimes...at the poker table that is

 

[Admiral Beez]

I wonder what the Chippewas of Rama First Nation think of this Toronto casino. With ample parking for buses and cars, It will definitely take a lot of their business away, especially if the Toronto Casino has a big concert venue.

Well, here's the answer. http://www.simcoe.com/news/article/1315914--chief-opposes-gta-casino

“We’re going to be working hard to do what we can to fight against the Toronto casino. It’s early in the game, but we’ll be doing what we can to bring (our concerns) to the attention of all of the interested parties,†says Chippewas of Rama First Nation Chief Sharon Stinson Henry.

Speaking of transit, with a year round instead of seasonal venue at OP, perhaps the CNE streetcar could be redirected via the casino entrance.